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German or US BB?


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MaddMazz #41 Posted 03 May 2017 - 05:54 PM

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Stats seem to show BBs with the highest WR are US at tier 4 5 6 9.  So do you want a specific ship at a specific tier or the line that has the most amount of good ships?  Tier 7 and 10 are indeed German for BBs.

 

 



Joe__defender_destroyer #42 Posted 03 May 2017 - 11:45 PM

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If your are looking for sneaky fast battleships with murderous AA the the US are your choice.

 

If your looking for massive tanky close in beasts, German battleships are your choice.

 

My preference, Well... maybe US maybe German? I really like them both for their unique aspects. Though as of now, the US are inferior in the reason that their key nemesis, planes are nearly extinct. Meanwhile, Germans still have other ships and lots of them are very derpy. Hopefully Carriers will make a comeback, but as of now, German are superior.   


Edited by Joe__defender_destroyer, 03 May 2017 - 11:46 PM.


Teflon_007 #43 Posted 04 May 2017 - 03:06 PM

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One word...speed.  Until you get to tier 8, USN BBs are slow as molasses. 

Carrier_Lexington #44 Posted 04 May 2017 - 05:49 PM

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View PostTeflon_007, on 04 May 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

One word...speed.  Until you get to tier 8, USN BBs are slow as molasses. 

 

And then they abruptly switch to 32 knot speeds.

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commando_brian #45 Posted 05 May 2017 - 04:12 AM

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The edge goes to the Germans after tier 7 because the German BB's get torps


Shadeylark #46 Posted 05 May 2017 - 08:03 AM

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View PostWowzery, on 17 April 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

 

I do a lot of that damage as they are trying to get in close.  By the time they finally get into effect range against my US BB, they're usually down to 10k of health or so and can't run away, even if they have the superior speed.

What tier?

 

Good luck whittling a bow on gk, with its 104k go and heavy armor, down to 10k before he's in his optimal range.  Especially considering if he's mounting 406mm, which do virtually he same damage as usn 410mm but fire even faster and mount just as many guns facing forward as any usn BB, or worse if he's mounting 420mm which not only do more damage also reload faster and mount just as many forward guns.



Carrier_Lexington #47 Posted 05 May 2017 - 01:41 PM

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View Postcommando_brian, on 04 May 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

The edge goes to the Germans after tier 7 because the German BB's get torps

 

Wrong. ONLY the T7 and Tirpitz get Torps. And one of those is a premium.

 

After T7, Germans revert to being regular battleships, with Bismark, FDG, and GK.

View PostShadeylark, on 05 May 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

 

Good luck whittling a bow on gk, with its 104k go and heavy armor, down to 10k before he's in his optimal range.

All it takes is superstructure hits. Germans eat full-pens for superstructure hits.


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Atom_Alchemist #48 Posted 05 May 2017 - 01:47 PM

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German are the kings of brawlers however in a division american bb can put out strong zone control especially against air craft

Shadeylark #49 Posted 05 May 2017 - 09:28 PM

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View PostCarrier_Lexington, on 05 May 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

 

All it takes is superstructure hits. Germans eat full-pens for superstructure hits.

even assuming the engagement starts at max range, you're gonna get only 3-4 salvo off before that gk is within 10km and at his optimal range.  average bb accuracy is 33%.  at an optimistic 4 salvos from a usn bb's 6 forward facing guns, that's a total of 24 shells downrange.  at 33% accuracy, that's 8 hits.  normal penetrating shots deal 10% of maximum damage per hit.  even optimistically you're only gonna deal roughly 40,000 damage.  gk has 105k hp.  you haven't even taken off half his health by the time he's at his optimal range, and inside of your own optimal range.

 

and this is all assuming he's not shooting you on his way in either.  nor is it taking into account that if he's coming at you bow on his hit box is even smaller, meaning a 33% hit rate is very unlikely.

 

sooooo... in a realistic situation, you've likely only done maybe 10,000 damage to him before he's at his optimal range and closed past your own optimal range, plus he's probably done similar damage to you that you've done to him.  end result, you're in the disadvantageous position relative to him in every way.


Edited by Shadeylark, 05 May 2017 - 09:29 PM.


HazeGrayUnderway #50 Posted 05 May 2017 - 09:30 PM

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View PostAtom_Alchemist, on 05 May 2017 - 05:47 AM, said:

German are the kings of brawlers however in a division american bb can put out strong zone control especially against air craft

 

This would be great if there were actually a lot of CVs being played, but they're not so the AA advantage is moot.  In addition, WG saw fit to give German BBs just as good AA, especially when it's part of a Mutual Air Defense since Ze Germans get equally as good long range AA as American BBs.  Matter of fact, at Tier VII, Gneisenau is completely superior in Air Defense than Colorado.

 

Selecting USN BBs because of good AA doesn't mean much when another BB line has just as good AA.


Edited by HazeGrayUnderway, 05 May 2017 - 09:31 PM.


Wowzery #51 Posted 05 May 2017 - 11:25 PM

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View PostShadeylark, on 05 May 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

What tier?

 

Good luck whittling a bow on gk, with its 104k go and heavy armor, down to 10k before he's in his optimal range.  Especially considering if he's mounting 406mm, which do virtually he same damage as usn 410mm but fire even faster and mount just as many guns facing forward as any usn BB, or worse if he's mounting 420mm which not only do more damage also reload faster and mount just as many forward guns.

 

All that I face, which is mostly T6-8 as I play mostly T6.  But have found no problem with T9 or 10 German battleships in my Alabama, Amagi, or NC.  I've also been accused of cheating by a few German BB players for doing so much damage to them.  The problem with German ships is they are not dangerous until they get in close, by which time they've lost a lot of damage.  You also assume that I'm allowing the German ship to close the range.  At 30 knots the German ships do not have an advantage over the other nations BBs.  And many times the return fire isn't as accurate and you do take way less damage.

The problem is most German captains do not know their ship, they've been on easy mode which makes the easy targets if you know how to engage them.



Carrier_Lexington #52 Posted 06 May 2017 - 12:30 AM

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View PostShadeylark, on 05 May 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

sooooo... in a realistic situation, you've likely only done maybe 10,000 damage to him before he's at his optimal range and closed past your own optimal range, plus he's probably done similar damage to you that you've done to him.  end result, you're in the disadvantageous position relative to him in every way.

Apparently, no one's told my 'Bama, which has taken up to 40k off of GK before through Superstructure hits.

 


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Shadeylark #53 Posted 06 May 2017 - 11:46 AM

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View PostCarrier_Lexington, on 06 May 2017 - 12:30 AM, said:

Apparently, no one's told my 'Bama, which has taken up to 40k off of GK before through Superstructure hits.

 

 

well, i can tell you that in 99 battles in my kurrywurst, 88 battles in my fdg, 84 in bizmarck and 59 in tirpitz (plus around another 100 with the all lower tiers combined), i can't remember a single time a single enemy ship has ever taken off 40k of my hp in the time its taken me to get within secondary range of him, assuming he didn't get lucky and sucker punch me from my broadside with the first shot.

 

ive had 40k taken off my gk, fdg, bizmarck and tirpitz from superstructure hits... but not from bow on AP hits, even from yammys, let alone any usn bb, including the bama.  the only time a bama has ever managed to, without any help from his buddies or from setting fires, take off 40k of my hp before i get him in my danger zone, is when im either a) ignoring him for the moment because im dealing with a bigger threat like a smoked up dd nearby or someone else equally capable of planting a bunch of torps in me, or b) he's got some other artificial or momentary advantage, like he's camping behind an island that ive got to maneuver around or he managed to surprise me from my broadside with his first salvo.

 

but bottom line, if i see you at the same time you see me, and im bow on to you with the intent to close range and brawl it out with you... you will not be taking 40k of my hp off before i get in brawiling range, even if you are in a yammato, let alone an alabama (unless you start spamming he, and even then, 40k fire damage is the average i take over the course of an entire match, much less one single 1v1).  you may, once we're in brawling range, manage to chunk 40k off me in a single salvo if i screw up and show you a close range broadside... but you will not be doing 40k damage to me before that while im bow on to you closing the distance.


Edited by Shadeylark, 06 May 2017 - 11:54 AM.


Wowzery #54 Posted 06 May 2017 - 12:42 PM

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View PostShadeylark, on 06 May 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

but bottom line, if i see you at the same time you see me, and im bow on to you with the intent to close range and brawl it out with you... you will not be taking 40k of my hp off before i get in brawiling range,

 

Once again, you assume I'll let you close the range quickly.

Carrier_Lexington #55 Posted 06 May 2017 - 04:24 PM

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View PostWowzery, on 06 May 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

 

Once again, you assume I'll let you close the range quickly.

 

A) What he said.

B) I have a concealment-specced 'Bama. I'll see you 'fore you see me.


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ANDROMADA #56 Posted 08 May 2017 - 06:43 PM

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View PostCarrier_Lexington, on 06 May 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

 

A) What he said.

B) I have a concealment-specced 'Bama. I'll see you 'fore you see me.

Once you fire, that goes away. In the game's current state, the Alabama is no match for Großer Kurfürst, as it shouldn't be for a tier 8. The problem is that in a 1v1, Montana is also no match for her either.



Shadeylark #57 Posted 08 May 2017 - 06:47 PM

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View PostCarrier_Lexington, on 06 May 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

 

A) What he said.

B) I have a concealment-specced 'Bama. I'll see you 'fore you see me.

 

there's that possibility.

 

but let's scope this scenario, shall we?

 

you see me, you shoot first.  im bow on, so the issues already discussed regarding hit chance and potential damage apply.  if you're bow on to me, then i can close the gap because you can't reverse faster than i can go forward.  if you're broadside on to me, well, you know what happens to bb's caught broadside.  if you're hugging a rock, you can't turn in that direction, leaving you the option to sit still (i can close the gap if you do this), to move forward towards me (doubling my closing speed), or you can turn broadside.

 

the ONLY way you'll prevent me from closing the gap on you, or doing massive damage to your broadside target, while i take minimal damage in return, is if you're already driving away from me... in which case i wouldn't play the tail chase game (and nor should anyone with half a braincell in their head).

 

your entire argument is predicated upon the german bb driver playing like an idiot while you play smart.  if you're relying on your enemy to be dumb in order to win, you're relying on luck instead of skill to win.


Edited by Shadeylark, 08 May 2017 - 06:50 PM.


Shadeylark #58 Posted 08 May 2017 - 06:49 PM

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View PostANDROMADA, on 08 May 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

Once you fire, that goes away. In the game's current state, the Alabama is no match for Großer Kurfürst, as it shouldn't be for a tier 8. The problem is that in a 1v1, Montana is also no match for her either.

 

the montana's issue is its enormous citadel.  fix that and you go a long way to making the montana competitive with both the gk and the yammy.  maybe not quite on par, but alot better than it is now.  the monty is a ship that has no choice but to bow camp just because its even less forgiving of taking risks than the gk or yammy.

Rusicaa #59 Posted 09 May 2017 - 03:58 PM

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IJN BB and learn to snipe in this meta.

Carrier_Lexington #60 Posted 09 May 2017 - 08:48 PM

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View PostShadeylark, on 08 May 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

<snip>

When I see you, I'll hold fire, and then get-around so that I can shoot your side, when I'm bow-on and have the advantage. You see me, and you begin turning. I will slow to 3/4 or 1/2 speed, and shell you in the superstructure. Once you compensate with your aim, I'll slow to 1/4th speed, or even stop and reverse. However, once your secondaries start opening-up, I'll go full-speed. I'll still shoot you, because my goal here is to deal as much damage to you before I go down. With a not-insignificant amount of luck, I'll even ram you.

 

Of course, this is assuming a 1v1. Once destroyers and cruisers are in-play, things get a lot more complicated.


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