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Hiroe #41 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:13 PM

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View PostCaptainKaitoGhost, on 12 April 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Moderated by Mezurashi.

 

I'm flattered that you used my words. So, do you have anything else to say about clans or is this conversation over?


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CaptainKaitoGhost #42 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:17 PM

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View PostHiroe, on 12 April 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

 

I'm flattered that you used my words. So, do you have anything else to say about clans or is this conversation over?

 

No, I'm finished.  This has been like trying to argue with a brick wall, except the wall is far less of an insufferable self-righteous douchewagon.

 

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Hiroe #43 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:20 PM

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View PostMadCard05, on 12 April 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

Individuals exist with or without the clan and like minded ones will gather together. This is just human nature. There is nothing wrong with clans themselves or the addition of them. Most friendships in online gaming start from two people who participate in a clan or game organization of some sort.

 

It doesn't happen to the extent that it does with clans though. A clan supplies convenient architecture, and humans are nothing if not creatures of convenience. You know, "the path of least resistance" and all that. It seems uncommon in my experience that a group of more than, say, five gather without some kind of broader architecture to facilitate more growth.

 

It also supplies an idea (of the clan), a name to possibly take pride in, and almost always reasons (clan activities in the case of World of Tanks) for coming together. It draws people to a central point for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes it's simple loneliness too.


Edited by Hiroe, 12 April 2017 - 09:30 PM.

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Hiroe #44 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:21 PM

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View PostCaptainKaitoGhost, on 12 April 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

 

No, I'm finished.  This has been like trying to argue with a brick wall, except the wall is far less of an insufferable self-righteous douchewagon.

 

It would've been a fine conversation had you actually opposed any of my points and not just mocked the religious among us. Disgusting.

Edited by Hiroe, 12 April 2017 - 09:37 PM.

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Rev_Humpjoy #45 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:21 PM

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:sleep_fish: This thread is tiring

 


Hiroe #46 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:22 PM

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View PostRev_Humpjoy, on 12 April 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

:sleep_fish: This thread is tiring

 

I'm almost always tired. It's sad.

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CaptainKaitoGhost #47 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:26 PM

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View PostHiroe, on 12 April 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

 

It would've been a fine conversation had you actually opposed any of my points and not just mocked the religious among us. Disgusting.

 

It was never a conversation to begin with.  Your mind was never open to the possibility that you could be wrong.  Your beliefs are the only true ones.  Disgusting.

 

And I don't mock all religious people.  Just the insufferable self-righteous ones.


 

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Hiroe #48 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:28 PM

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View PostCaptainKaitoGhost, on 12 April 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

 

It was never a conversation to begin with.  Your mind was never open to the possibility that you could be wrong.  Your beliefs are the only true ones.  Disgusting.

 

And I don't mock all religious people.  Just the insufferable self-righteous ones.

 

Well, you never even contradicted one of my points. You tried to, but that was only because you misread (or simply didn't read) my post.

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Madwolf05 #49 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:30 PM

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View PostHiroe, on 12 April 2017 - 04:20 PM, said:

 

It doesn't happen to the extent that it does with clans though. A clan supplies convenient architecture, and humans are nothing if not creatures of convenience. You know, "the path of least resistance" and all that. It seems uncommon in my experience that a group of more than, say, five gather without some kind of broader architecture to facilitate more growth.

 

It also supplies an idea (of the clan), a name to possibly take pride in, and almost always reasons for coming together. It draws people to a central point for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes it's simple loneliness, sure, but there are also all of those "clan activities" (like in World of Tanks) too.

 

The path of least applies to all forms and actions of life. Just because clans make it easier for people to express themselves doesn't mean that the result is something that is inherently bad. You seem to have had a poor experience and have imposed that one poor experience on future experiences that have yet to happen. 

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Hiroe #50 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:34 PM

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View PostMadCard05, on 12 April 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

 

The path of least applies to all forms and actions of life. Just because clans make it easier for people to express themselves doesn't mean that the result is something that is inherently bad. You seem to have had a poor experience and have imposed that one poor experience on future experiences that have yet to happen. 


I have had a poor experience. You're certainly right about that. I only hope the same thing doesn't happen here. I'll be relieved if I'm proved wrong.


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CaptainKaitoGhost #51 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:40 PM

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View PostHiroe, on 12 April 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

 

Well, you never even contradicted one of my points. You tried to, but that was only because you misread (or simply didn't read) my post.

 

Jesus Christ, I've met some dense people in my life, but Jesus Christ.

 

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Hiroe #52 Posted 12 April 2017 - 09:51 PM

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Maybe this wasn't the best thread for it, but it is a real concern.

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Mezurashi #53 Posted 12 April 2017 - 10:18 PM

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Please be reminded to not discuss sensitive religious topics. Let's stick to the topic's main point shall we?

 

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CaptainKaitoGhost #54 Posted 12 April 2017 - 10:22 PM

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View PostMezurashi, on 12 April 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Please be reminded to not discuss sensitive religious topics. Let's stick to the topic's main point shall we?

 

Thanks.

 

Oh bullcrap!  I just spent all that time on my last post, explaining why I posted every response in here, and you just delete the entire thing without reading it?

 

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CaptainKaitoGhost #55 Posted 12 April 2017 - 10:40 PM

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Fine.  Take 2.  (Please don't delete, I'm not actually talking about religion here)

 

 

You originally posted this:  An outrageous statement, with no basis in fact.

 

View PostHiroe, on 12 April 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Clans are a mistake.

 

So I respond with an equally outrageous statement, picking a topic that I bet was important to you, in hopes that you'd see what you were doing.  Boy, were my hopes high...

 

View PostCaptainKaitoGhost, on 12 April 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

 

Religion is a mistake.

 

You also posted this:  Literal paragraphs of you ranting about how all clans are bad because the top 1% can sometimes be @ssholes.

 

View PostHiroe, on 12 April 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

 

Do you only give your opinions when they're explicitly asked for? I doubt it.

 

 

Feel free to point out exactly how in the future instead of making statements such as this one.

 

 

K, here are some of my thoughts and feelings on the matter:

 

They encourage an "us versus them" mentality (people who participate in clan activities vs "pubbies"). This can be observed in the extremely polarized World of Tanks community. You also have "unicums" and "super unicums," the ones who prefer clan activities the most in my experience, treating those they perceive as beneath them like human trash because of the mentality they have developed in their insulated clan environment. Also, the "clan activities" add something of consequence to clans, so many people are kind of beguiled by the existence of the possibility of reward into thinking clans are more generally important entities.

 

Not only that, but then they have the security of proximity - that is to say, people who view the game similarly are nearby (referring to "elite" players) - and numbers,  and so naturally the strength and intensity of their opinions increase. And then these opinions are slowly pushed upon the community through any medium they have access to, and such certitude is behind these opinions, because the "unicums" and "super unicums" think them without doubt after having them reinforced in their insulated environment, that everyone else can't help but think there is at least some truth to them. And the "unicums" and "super unicums" normally believe they have the best opinions and if anyone challenges them they say, "my stats are better than yours," and that's that; and also many people are hoodwinked into thinking that the commentary of these "elite" players has more weight than the commentary of almost anyone else. In short, what they say is perceived as concrete reality by many players.

 

In the end, it's a hilarious brand of "fantasy elitism" that stratifies communities in ridiculous ways, and because of the absurd and unnecessary nature of the stratification, it pushes a lot of more thoughtful people away from the community. This, too, can be observed in the World of Tanks community. Of course, the truth is that real world hierarchies should be imposed upon every instance of community in existence, but the internet is far too anarchic to allow for that; and also the natural hierarchies of the real world have been almost entirely transformed into systems of stratification based on the most irrelevant kind of wealth - material wealth - so even then the imposition of real world hierarchies doesn't produce a very desirable result.

 

So, in summary, it corrodes the quality of the community in the long term by creating an insulated environment in which ridiculous opinions are frequently reinforced, and also by adding more definition to the divisions of the community. XVM, WN8, and WTR do something similar. Not only do they create this polarization between "good" and "bad," which means "skilled" and "unskilled," but they also create an unnecessary and ridiculous implicit system of stratification that fragments the community more and more as time passes.

 

And then there is the sense of entitlement that "people who participate in clan activities" and "unicums" and "super unicums"  often have. Many of them, nowhere near all, believe that because they are skilled at this video game they have the right to behave in all sorts of revolting ways. For example, in World of Tanks, it's not exactly uncommon for clan members of certain "elite" clans, such as MAHOU and BULBA, to treat those who they perceive as beneath them like human trash. You see it on the forums and in battle and even sometimes in the garage.

 

Furthermore, in their insulated clan environment, they develop the most ridiculous expectations regarding how exactly the game "should be played," and they force these expectations on normal players. You know, the ones who play for enjoyment and relaxation, or the ones who value the source material, and those expectations, too, are backed with the same certitude I mentioned earlier; so the normal players begin to feel insecure about their approach to the game, and this insecurity is insidious, like most kinds of insecurity, because it very generally undermines self-respect and self-confidence.

 

The "unicum" says such and such about how dumb the "pubbies" are, or perhaps specifically targets a single player and unloads a barrage of preconceived criticisms at him to vent his frustration, and all of this disdain and hatred causes doubt in the normal player's mind. "Am I dumb because I'm not-so-amazing at this video game? I wonder." Whether most people acknowledge this experience is irrelevant. It happens to almost everyone.


Not all clans are like this. That goes without saying. I'm talking mainly about the "elite" clans; the ones full of people who consider themselves above the rest.

 

Anyway, in the real world, I believe in hierarchy and the like, but that's because survival is imperative in the real world, and systems of hierarchy and so on ideally (and naturally) elevate the most able (what used to be the aristocracy) to the highest levels of society. It makes sense in the real world, but it's absurd in a community such as this one.

 

See?  Almost that entire post was you ranting about elitists, and how they make all clans bad.  But then, almost as an afterthought, you add a couple sentences at the end saying "but not all clans".  Bullcrap.  If not all clans are bad, why call them all "a mistake"?

 

So then I post this, calling out your garbage arguments:

 

View PostCaptainKaitoGhost, on 12 April 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

 

It does not really matter, since this topic isn't about your feelings on clans in general, but I will humor you.

 

 

 

First off, you apparently are under the assumption that whenever someone is looking for a clan, they exclusively look for the top 1% ultra-competitive clans to join.  The fact is, most clans are casual and consist entirely of people who just want to play games together with people they like.

 

Secondly, you paint all clans with a broad brush, calling them all narrow minded elitists who only want to spread their elitism.  At this point, it becomes exceedingly clear that you don't have any actual experience with the average clans.

 

In fact, your entire argument against clans isn't actually against clans at all, it's against elitist @ssholes.  Somewhere along the line, you seem to have falsely equated "elitist @sshole" to "all clans everywhere and in general".

 

 

You, however, choose to completely ignore it, because of your little afterthought that somehow cancels out the entire rest of your argument.

 

So, once again I decide to post something outrageous in the hopes of you seeing what you were doing (the eternal optimist, I am).  This time, I lightly paraphrased your rant, changing the subject from "clans" to "Another topic that you obviously care about".

 

However, since that post has been deleted, I can not quote it here, so I'm forced to just explain it.

 

The thing is, my parody could have actually been serious.  I personally despise organized religion.  It does nothing for me.  However, while it does nothing for me, I recognize that it does work for countless other people.  And so, I don't go out of my way to say organized religion is "a mistake" whenever the topic comes up (inB4 you quote my first reply, but I've already explained what I was trying to accomplish with that).  That, however, is exactly what you did here.  You had a bad experience with a clan, and now you think that all clans are "a mistake".  Just because a few elitists acted like @ssholes to you, you think that all clans are bad.  And because you don't enjoy clans anymore, nobody else should either.  All because you, a single person, had a bad experience with one clan.  Do you understand how utterly ridiculous that is?

 

Have I sufficiently destroyed your garbage arguments now, or will you continue to keep your mind closed, and plug your ears while yelling "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG LALALALA!"?


 

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Hiroe #56 Posted 12 April 2017 - 11:51 PM

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View PostCaptainKaitoGhost, on 12 April 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Fine.  Take 2.  (Please don't delete, I'm not actually talking about religion here)

 

You originally posted this:  An outrageous statement, with no basis in fact.

 

So I respond with an equally outrageous statement, picking a topic that I bet was important to you, in hopes that you'd see what you were doing.  Boy, were my hopes high...

 

You also posted this:  Literal paragraphs of you ranting about how all clans are bad because the top 1% can sometimes be @ssholes.

 

See?  Almost that entire post was you ranting about elitists, and how they make all clans bad.  But then, almost as an afterthought, you add a couple sentences at the end saying "but not all clans".  Bullcrap.  If not all clans are bad, why call them all "a mistake"?

 

So then I post this, calling out your garbage arguments:

 

You, however, choose to completely ignore it, because of your little afterthought that somehow cancels out the entire rest of your argument.

 

So, once again I decide to post something outrageous in the hopes of you seeing what you were doing (the eternal optimist, I am).  This time, I lightly paraphrased your rant, changing the subject from "clans" to "Another topic that you obviously care about".

 

However, since that post has been deleted, I can not quote it here, so I'm forced to just explain it.

 

The thing is, my parody could have actually been serious.  I personally despise organized religion.  It does nothing for me.  However, while it does nothing for me, I recognize that it does work for countless other people.  And so, I don't go out of my way to say organized religion is "a mistake" whenever the topic comes up (inB4 you quote my first reply, but I've already explained what I was trying to accomplish with that).  That, however, is exactly what you did here.  You had a bad experience with a clan, and now you think that all clans are "a mistake".  Just because a few elitists acted like @ssholes to you, you think that all clans are bad.  And because you don't enjoy clans anymore, nobody else should either.  All because you, a single person, had a bad experience with one clan.  Do you understand how utterly ridiculous that is?

 

Have I sufficiently destroyed your garbage arguments now, or will you continue to keep your mind closed, and plug your ears while yelling "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG LALALALA!"?

 

I'll just copy and paste this again:

 

That's understandable, but I made a statement near the end of my post:

 

"Not all clans are like this. That goes without saying. I'm talking mainly about the "elite" clans; the ones full of people who consider themselves above the rest."

 

The key issue is that "elite" clans exert much more influence than casual clans (which I have no issue with), since a lot of players seem to look up to "elite" players and clans and so on and attribute much more weight to what they say. This is an issue because "elite" players often view casuals as subhumans, and so begins the stratification that I talked about.

 

Their influence is so much greater than that of the casual clans that the entire idea of clans is kind of blackened by their existence.

 

Also, once again, notice how much I mention the "elite" and the "unicums" and the "super unicums" in that post. It's pretty clear that I'm not talking about all clans. Why isn't that clear to you? Oh, gee, I know. You want to pick a fight and push someone around. You don't want to have an actual conversation about any of this.

 

It's not "just because a few elitists behaved in a despicable manner." When there is a particularly high concentration of them, which is precisely what's observed when there are clans of them, the insulation and echo chamber of the clan environment reinforces their extremely negative opinions about the rest of the community. I've seen countless comments likening "pubbies" to subhumans and so much more in the past. I don't want to see that anywhere else I am and so I actively oppose it. It's ridiculous to me that they treat people so poorly for such a weak reason.

 

It mostly has to do with "pubbies" not taking the the game as seriously as they do, and thus they make no effort to improve in any real sense, which is perfectly fine. It's not against any rules and they shouldn't be abused because they play casually. They will never be able to live up to the expectations of the "elite" because, once again, they're not interested in improvement in any real sense. They play for relaxation or enjoyment, or because they value the source material.

 

So, your point is simply: Not all clans are bad.

 

My response is simply: Yes, I know, but some are so bad that they make the entire idea not worth it.


Edited by Hiroe, 12 April 2017 - 11:57 PM.

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CaptainKaitoGhost #57 Posted 13 April 2017 - 03:03 AM

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So, you went with option #2, then.

 

I suppose "You're right, my post calling all clans a mistake was a bit out of line.  In the future, I'll try my best to allow other people to enjoy things that I personally dislike" was simply too much to hope for.

 

Ah well.  No point arguing with a close minded idiot.


 

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Hiroe #58 Posted 13 April 2017 - 03:06 AM

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View PostCaptainKaitoGhost, on 12 April 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

So, you went with option #2, then.

 

I suppose "You're right, my post calling all clans a mistake was a bit out of line.  In the future, I'll try my best to allow other people to enjoy things that I personally dislike" was simply too much to hope for.

 

Ah well.  No point arguing with a close minded idiot.

 

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Hiroe #59 Posted 13 April 2017 - 03:08 AM

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You know, calling everyone who disagrees with you a "close-minded idiot" probably isn't the wisest route.

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aAkula #60 Posted 13 April 2017 - 03:22 AM

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View PostHiroe, on 13 April 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

You know, calling everyone who disagrees with you a "close-minded idiot" probably isn't the wisest route.

 

Are you a snowflake? 

Were you touched by a unicum/elitist? 

Did a top clan hurt your feelings? 

 

Help me understand. 


 

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