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3D Size Comparison: USN Treaty Battleships and Iowa


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iDuckman #21 Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:53 PM

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Iowa is LONG because length at the waterline has a major effect on SPEED.  The others (NC and SD) weren't designed to be as fast, so could be more compact.

 



Lampshade_M1A2 #22 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:19 AM

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Great views, when you look at this comparison it looks like they could have fit an additional twin 5"/38 on each side of the Iowa class.

 

Also any chance of doing one overhead view including the Montana?


Edited by Lampshade_M1A2, 21 March 2017 - 12:20 AM.


dseehafer #23 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:37 AM

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View PostLampshade_M1A2, on 20 March 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

Great views, when you look at this comparison it looks like they could have fit an additional twin 5"/38 on each side of the Iowa class.

 

Also any chance of doing one overhead view including the Montana?

 

its possible, but it wouldn't have any textures. Besides you can just look at the normal size comparisons for overhead views.
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hoom #24 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:44 AM

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Huh, TIL.

I always thought NC with its blunt bow was the shorter class, with the length difference to SD being mainly the sharper bow.

Turns out that was totally wrong :hmm:


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dseehafer #25 Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:03 AM

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View Posthoom, on 20 March 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

Huh, TIL.

I always thought NC with its blunt bow was the shorter class, with the length difference to SD being mainly the sharper bow.

Turns out that was totally wrong :hmm:

 

The normal size comparison also shows the length difference.
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CybrSlydr #26 Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:30 AM

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View Postdseehafer, on 20 March 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

 

how??

 

Do you disagree?

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DeMatt #27 Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:09 AM

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View PostCybrSlydr, on 20 March 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

 

Do you disagree?

 

The Alaska would beat the piss out of a Graf Spee.  It's faster, it's got more and bigger guns, it's got more and better armor, it's got more and better AA, it's got more and better secondaries...  an Alaska at tier 6 would make a mockery of game balance.

 

Following Graf Spee's lead, Alaska would be "a cruiser", probably tier 8, where it can beat on Mogami and Hipper the way Graf Spee gets to beat on Aoba and Cleveland.  In turn, it would fear North Carolina & Bismarck & Amagi the same way Graf Spee fears New Mexico & Bayern & Fuso.



mofton #28 Posted 21 March 2017 - 05:10 AM

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View PostDeMatt, on 20 March 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

The Alaska would beat the piss out of a Graf Spee.  It's faster, it's got more and bigger guns, it's got more and better armor, it's got more and better AA, it's got more and better secondaries...  an Alaska at tier 6 would make a mockery of game balance.

 

Dunkerque roflstomps Graf Spee too as designed (more, bigger guns, more, better armor, meh on AA, meh on secondaries) and she's a happy T6, pretty well balanced. Just a battleship, and battleships counter cruisers. 

 

As Tzarevitch says she's closest to the Dunkerque of anything in-game. Similar belt (50% thicker than the best armored cruiser which is a huge leap) similar gun punch - though Dunkerque gets fun shell velocities - and ROF if you take the low end. Alaska's a bit problematic with her very good AA but lack of maneuverability and TDS, although USN BB's demonstrate that's not necessarily critical (North Carolina has less TDS than Moskva so whatever...)

 

Alaska might be a 6 or a 7 as a battleship. T7 mostly on AA strength.

 

 


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dseehafer #29 Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:32 AM

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View PostCybrSlydr, on 20 March 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

 

Do you disagree?

 

Yes, I disagree. The only advantages Spee would have would be her torpedoes and her smaller size and the benefits that come with it.  Alaska weighed twice as much as Spee, that means twice as many hitpoints. Alaska had more than twice as much armor as Spee. So Spee cannot compete in terms of survivability. Spee has torpedoes but at the cost of having smaller main battery guns and 3 fewer of them. Both ships can fire 8 secondary guns to a broadside. Alaska roflstomps Spee in the AA department and also in the speed department.

 

She might be a tier 6 battleship, but she's definitely not a tier 6 cruiser alongside Spee.


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icyplanetnhc #30 Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:22 AM

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View PostViscount, on 20 March 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

hmm, so the NC's just a trace wider then the Iowa, I remember the Iowa's width was restricted by what would fit through the Panama Canal, (or rather all of our bb's were.)

 

The Iowa and South Dakota-class battleships are just a tad wider, with a 108' beam compared to the North Carolina-class' 105'. (108' overall, waterline beam is a bit less due to external belt incline)

 

Technically, as designed, the Iowa is still a treaty battleship, as it's bound by the "escalator clause" of the Second London Naval Treaty, which limits battleships to 45000 tons and 16" guns. The USN battleship that's truly freed of any treaty restrictions is the Montana-class.

 

EDIT: Mistakenly attributed the North Carolina's waterline beam with overall beam. She's a bit narrower at the waterline due to her inclined external belt. Overall she is indeed 108' in the beam.

 


Edited by icyplanetnhc, 18 May 2017 - 10:54 PM.


dseehafer #31 Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:43 AM

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View Posticyplanetnhc, on 21 March 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

 

The Iowa and South Dakota-class battleships are just a tad wider, with a 108' beam compared to the North Carolina-class' 105'.

 

Technically, as designed, the Iowa is still a treaty battleship, as it's bound by the "escalator clause" of the Second London Naval Treaty, which limits battleships to 45000 tons and 16" guns. The USN battleship that's truly freed of any treaty restrictions is the Montana-class.

 

According to navypedia all three classes were 33m (108') in breadth. Even Wikipedia states as much.
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icyplanetnhc #32 Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:12 AM

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View Postdseehafer, on 20 March 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

 

According to navypedia all three classes were 33m (108') in breadth. Even Wikipedia states as much.

 

Actually you're right, I saw the waterline beam and mistakenly attributed that to the overall beam. Yes, all three classes have 108' beam, with the North Carolina-class having a narrower waterline beam due to the inclined external belt.

CybrSlydr #33 Posted 21 March 2017 - 12:36 PM

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No, that's not what I'm saying.

 

I'm saying it would play more like a Spee than a Scharnhorst.  The Alaska wouldn't be charging in to brawl and tank, it would be a second-line support ship that would need to pick and choose it's engagements.


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Battlecruiser_Guam #34 Posted 25 March 2017 - 08:29 PM

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View Postdseehafer, on 20 March 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

 

shes comparable to Scharnhorst... Less armor but more hitpoints, no torpedoes but bigger guns, worse secondary battery but better AA, worse turning circle but higher top speed, ECT, ECT..

 

her turning radius is better than Scharnhorst at 731m compared to the Shcarn's 800m

dseehafer #35 Posted 25 March 2017 - 09:17 PM

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View PostBattlecruiser_Guam, on 25 March 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

 

her turning radius is better than Scharnhorst at 731m compared to the Shcarn's 800m

 

Turning radius's in-game are not based off of real life turning radius's. They are completely made up and implemented for balance purposes. Scharnhorst's real life turning radius was 634m as recorded by her sister Gneisenau.

 

 


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Battlecruiser_Guam #36 Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:44 PM

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View Postdseehafer, on 25 March 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

 

Turning radius's in-game are not based off of real life turning radius's. They are completely made up and implemented for balance purposes. Scharnhorst's real life turning radius was 634m as recorded by her sister Gneisenau.

 

 

 

looking at these charts of the Gneisenau's turn circle i dont know which one WG base their turning radius on whether it be at full speed or reduced. 

 



xX_Critical_ClopOut69_Xx #37 Posted 30 March 2017 - 09:49 PM

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View PostCybrSlydr, on 20 March 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

 

Because the Alaska is nowhere near as tough as the Scharnhorst.  9" belt vs 13.8" belt.  Yes, it's guns are 1" larger in size and the same in number, but the Alaska is not a Battleship and, like the Spee, if treated like one, it will get annihilated.

 

Yes, the Alaska has 3 more guns and 3x the belt armor but it's not going to stand toe-to-toe with Nagatos, Amagis, Bismarcks, etc.  (I cannot see them giving the Alaska the 12" guns it had - they had the same penetrating power as the older 14" and fired 2.4-3rpm)

 

So my guess is that when they create the Alaska, it'll be like this:  It'll have the guns from the Wyoming with the trajectory of the North Carolina, the belt close to the New York (it was 10" at it's thinnest) the speed and turning circle of the Iowa and the AA of the North Carolina.

 

There is no way a ship with slightly less armor than the New York will stand up to the punishment of tier 9 BBs - so it'll play like a more armored Graf Spee.

 

Alaska is squarely a Tier 7 ship, she would be blatantly OP at Tier 6.

 

Her HP comes out to 51,300 but that's low for a battleship however, her other stats more than cover this. She can make 33 knots along with having a better AA armament than Baltimore at Tier 9.

 

Her guns are excellent, with the same 3.0 RPM rate of fire as Scharnhorst while having much better penetration at most ranges. Her shell arcs are worse with 762 m/s on her AP and 808 m/s on her HE. 12 degree per second rotation means her turrets turn fast too. Her AP would do roughly 8,870 damage maximum while her HE would do 4,380 damage with a fire chance of 26%.

 

Her armor is lackluster when compared to Scharnhorst but it's not god awful. It's better than heavy cruisers but worse than battleships. 

 

That isn't something that should be at Tier 6, Tier 7 fits perfectly.



crzyhawk #38 Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:04 PM

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if you ever get the opportunity deesee, I'd like to see Graf Spee vs Cleveland or Arizona.  The model for Spee always looked a bit short to me compared to other ~608 ft ships.


dseehafer #39 Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:08 PM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 30 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

if you ever get the opportunity deesee, I'd like to see Graf Spee vs Cleveland or Arizona.  The model for Spee always looked a bit short to me compared to other ~608 ft ships.

 

I can get them all lined up in about 5 minutes, but they won't have any textures. If you're ok with that, just say the word and I'll get on it.

Edited by dseehafer, 30 March 2017 - 10:08 PM.

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crzyhawk #40 Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:11 PM

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Sure, I just want to see they are actually close in length for the models.  I believe it's likely my eyes playing tricks on me, but would like to verify for curiosity's sake

 






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