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USN CA's Tiers 7 and Up Discussion (Are they better now?)


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AdmiralMudkip #1 Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:59 PM

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So everyone pretty much knows about the buffs USN cruisers received from Tiers 7 and up. Does it improve the grind and experience of the Pensacola, New Orleans, Baltimore, and Des Moines? How do these cruisers fare against its respective national tier counterparts, for example, Pensacola versus Myoko? Any significant changes to their gameplay or does it improve on their part? If they're still mediocre (at best) or powerful, how so and why?

The_first_harbinger #2 Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:04 PM

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I can only speak of Pensacola(New Orleans just around the corner), but yes, she fares very well indeed. 

Now a fully specced stealth Pensacola can out sneak most cruisers, left alone battleships, giving Pensacola the initiative she needed to land devastating AP opening salvos while place herself in a reasonable position. She's still not tanky, but it is not expected from Pensacola, and with reasonable maneuvers she's certainly not a Insta-delete anymore. 


Edited by The_first_harbinger, 19 March 2017 - 08:06 PM.

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DoctorMcDerp #3 Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:05 PM

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Been having some pretty good games in the NO lately, or so it it would seem.

FayFay731 #4 Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:26 PM

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View PostThe_first_harbinger, on 19 March 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

not a Insta-delete anymore. 

 

I always get overpens nowadays on the pensas. :(

Phoenix_jz #5 Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:36 PM

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I don't know about the tier VIII+ ships (haven't played them), but Pensacola has become a breeze to play for me, and even Indy's perking up, not so much from the RoF buff, (lol @ .2 extra rpm), but from the armor boost. 22mm does a lot more than people realize, not only in regards to autobouncing 11-12" guns, but in resistance to DD HE.

 

IFHE will still ruin your day, but you get that less from DDs, I find... although Akizuki's are dead meat for you, as even their IFHE can't deal with 22mm armor. 


 

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ckupf #6 Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:23 PM

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The only one I felt was really bad was the New Orleans. The buffs were well-deserved and substantial, so I imagine they aren't too bad anymore. Pensacola is fine, just a glass cannon (why won't WG give it torps like it had irl?). NO has gotten radar and 2s faster reload since I played. Balti has amazing shells and 10s reload now iirc. They might still be the weakest line, but they are competitive.

Phoenix_jz #7 Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:47 AM

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View Postckupf, on 19 March 2017 - 04:23 PM, said:

The only one I felt was really bad was the New Orleans. The buffs were well-deserved and substantial, so I imagine they aren't too bad anymore. Pensacola is fine, just a glass cannon (why won't WG give it torps like it had irl?). NO has gotten radar and 2s faster reload since I played. Balti has amazing shells and 10s reload now iirc. They might still be the weakest line, but they are competitive.

 

Her torps were stripped off long before most of her AA weaponry was put on... It would be a damage piñata for any CV that saw it...


 

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crzyhawk #8 Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:51 AM

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They're still bottom feeders.


Wyatt_DERP85 #9 Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:18 PM

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Since they don't have smoke or extreme range, they are definitely the hardest cruisers to get into a good position to do damage with without being wrecked by return fire. They seem to be the hardest cruisers to make work at least in my opinion. But if you can make them work, they are very capable ships in terms of the damage potential they have - their guns didn't get the memo about bouncing off citadels of angled cruisers.

Edited by Wyatt_DERP85, 20 March 2017 - 06:20 PM.


HazeGrayUnderway #10 Posted 20 March 2017 - 08:19 PM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 19 March 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

They're still bottom feeders.

 

Pretty much.  Statistically, on an individual basis they had varying degrees of improvement.

 

Pensacola

All time Damage Average 26.4k

2 week Damage Average 28.3k

 

New Orleans

All time Damage Average 29.2k

2 week Damage Average 30.8k

 

Baltimore

All time Damage Average 34.5k

2 week Damage Average 40k

 

Des Moines

All time Damage Average 60.3k

2 week Damage Average 64.9k

 

Regardless, all these USN Cruisers are still at the bottom of their respective Cruiser tiers.



Tzarevitch #11 Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:57 PM

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Pensacola's concealment was always a severe problem. For the others, the ROF buff helps, but it doesn't address the fact that the ships just have a naturally high skill floor to play because they don't have any one trait that makes them work well, with the exception of Des Moines. Also, without the alpha strike capability of even lousy torps like the Germans and Russians have, they have NO answer for a BB that is in too close. In the current NA server meta where you have 5 BBs per side that hurts, a lot. There is only so long you can dodge BB shells when 5 of them are shooting at you. US cruisers do fine against DDs and other cruisers, BBs are a real problem in a fight without a ton of island clutter.

 

I like them, but it has taken me a long time to learn to play them. It isn't hard to see why others don't care for them much though. Their  AP, radar, AA, good turret traverse and good agility are their only really good traits. They pay for that with slow shell trajectories, middling armor, middling stealth. The slow trajectories prevent them from using range as a shield. Middling armor, middling stealth, and lack of torps (not that armor helps against BBs) prevent them from being great up close of there is a BB anywhere in sight. The historical advantages they had (great fire control) don't play out in the game, and I also thing Wargaming's choices on game "balance" have also hurt them. They still need ... something. I think a single heal (increasable with captain skills and premium) for Pensacola and New Orleans would boost their survivability with a minimum of impact to everything else. Baltimore and Des Moines could get a bonus to their existing couple of heals such as the ability to repair more citadel damage than normal. Oddly, British cruisers get a heal even though historically British repair capability was poor, and the smoke screen helps mitigate attacks. American cruisers which historically were stellar in repairing battle damage, don't get any heal and have no other ability to aid survival.

 

If the CV changes work well and more CVs get played, that should also help a lot, both by reducing the number of BBs per match, actively culling the BBs in the match, and increasing the value of the American CL/CAs for their AA. Another possibility is to cap the number of BBs in a match at 3 per side the same way that CVs are capped at 2. [The last one helps all CA/CLs.]



KaptainKaybe #12 Posted 23 March 2017 - 05:48 AM

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Yes, very much so. Baltimore is now a very solid ship. Same RoF as the Roon, but best suited at brawling ranges. And her AP, while not as high damage as the Roon, is absolutely monstrous in it's penetration.

chaffee123 #13 Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:57 AM

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Tzarevitch hit the nail on the head. I have said before that the USN "flavor" should be repair. The USN excelled at it. Kind of a slap in the face to the USN really.

AA ability is intrinsic to the ship itself not a flavor. Repairing and keeping the ship afloat IS, a culture developed by training and philosophy

I have always thought that the AA flavor was [edited].



HazeGrayUnderway #14 Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:20 PM

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View PostTzarevitch, on 20 March 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Pensacola's concealment was always a severe problem. For the others, the ROF buff helps, but it doesn't address the fact that the ships just have a naturally high skill floor to play because they don't have any one trait that makes them work well, with the exception of Des Moines. Also, without the alpha strike capability of even lousy torps like the Germans and Russians have, they have NO answer for a BB that is in too close. In the current NA server meta where you have 5 BBs per side that hurts, a lot. There is only so long you can dodge BB shells when 5 of them are shooting at you. US cruisers do fine against DDs and other cruisers, BBs are a real problem in a fight without a ton of island clutter.

 

I like them, but it has taken me a long time to learn to play them. It isn't hard to see why others don't care for them much though. Their  AP, radar, AA, good turret traverse and good agility are their only really good traits. They pay for that with slow shell trajectories, middling armor, middling stealth. The slow trajectories prevent them from using range as a shield. Middling armor, middling stealth, and lack of torps (not that armor helps against BBs) prevent them from being great up close of there is a BB anywhere in sight. The historical advantages they had (great fire control) don't play out in the game, and I also thing Wargaming's choices on game "balance" have also hurt them. They still need ... something. I think a single heal (increasable with captain skills and premium) for Pensacola and New Orleans would boost their survivability with a minimum of impact to everything else. Baltimore and Des Moines could get a bonus to their existing couple of heals such as the ability to repair more citadel damage than normal. Oddly, British cruisers get a heal even though historically British repair capability was poor, and the smoke screen helps mitigate attacks. American cruisers which historically were stellar in repairing battle damage, don't get any heal and have no other ability to aid survival.

 

If the CV changes work well and more CVs get played, that should also help a lot, both by reducing the number of BBs per match, actively culling the BBs in the match, and increasing the value of the American CL/CAs for their AA. Another possibility is to cap the number of BBs in a match at 3 per side the same way that CVs are capped at 2. [The last one helps all CA/CLs.]

 

Let's say WG's CV UI revamp somehow opens the floodgates where we get lots and lots and lots of new CV players to the point they are a common sight like they were around Launch.

 

In that CV-heavy setting, USN Cruisers no longer hold dominance in AA.

 

German and Russian Cruisers also eventually develop good AA.  RN Cruisers eventually do so also and they don't even have Defensive Fire!  Yet Minotaur is shooting down more planes than Des Moines!

 

The only thing AA USN Cruisers have is that they start sooner with good AA with Tier VI Cleveland.  RN blooms late, taking off with Tier IX.  RU Cruisers take off in AA at Tier VIII.  German Cruisers at the same tier.  But the real kicker is that the RU & German Cruisers have better long range AA than the Tier VII-VIII tech tree USN Cruisers.

 

So even then, USN Cruisers aren't any special in AA.  LOL don't get me started on high AA BBs :D



crzyhawk #15 Posted 24 March 2017 - 12:58 AM

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View PostHazeGrayUnderway, on 20 March 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

 

Pretty much.  Statistically, on an individual basis they had varying degrees of improvement.

 

Pensacola

All time Damage Average 26.4k

2 week Damage Average 28.3k

 

New Orleans

All time Damage Average 29.2k

2 week Damage Average 30.8k

 

Baltimore

All time Damage Average 34.5k

2 week Damage Average 40k

 

Des Moines

All time Damage Average 60.3k

2 week Damage Average 64.9k

 

Regardless, all these USN Cruisers are still at the bottom of their respective Cruiser tiers.

 

The best answer is still to re-tier the whole slew of them down one.  P'cola to 6, NOLA to 7, and Balto to 8.  Add CA-B at T9, US cruisers are in good shape.


Wyatt_DERP85 #16 Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:33 AM

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They are at the bottom still but the gap has narrowed thanks to the buffs. I swear they are quite effective situationally. Don't underestimate them - a lot of people do and pay the price. While their rate of fire isn't the best, they are much more effective than any of the other heavy cruisers at doing damage to angled targets. When you see a cruiser at a 45 degree angle and land citadel hits as if they were broadside, you can appreciate them more. I'm on Baltimore now and am loving this ship. The cruisers still do have the issue of having a raised citadel. Unfortunately the raised citadel and size of these ships means that battleships can citadel you no matter what.

Edited by Wyatt_DERP85, 24 March 2017 - 04:33 AM.


crzyhawk #17 Posted 24 March 2017 - 10:22 AM

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I can punish with a Myoko too.  In addition to AP though, I get to punish with fantastic HE and torpedoes as well, not to mention being harder to hit.  USN cruisers are the worst in the game.


Carl #18 Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:12 PM

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Pensacola is definitely solid now. I'm running a 44k average in her atm. She's not OP or anything i don't think, but she's solid. If you know what your rudder is for and how and when to use it. Many don't.

crzyhawk #19 Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:15 PM

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View PostCarl, on 24 March 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

Pensacola is still worse than every other T7 cruiser except Yorck.  She still puts up T6 like numbers.

 

FTFY





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