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Alabama's armor model is already massively in error

Alabama armor model error

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YamatoA150 #621 Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:52 AM

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View PostKnightFandragon, on 20 March 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

Yeah, making it an improved North Carolina will make it a GOOD ship.  Maybe we can finally have another USN BB thats as good as the Arizona tier for tier.

 

Wouldn't that be Missouri once they lower her citadel?  She can do almost everything Alabama can but better for the USN, only losing out in maneuverability and TDS.

 

And technically cheaper too.


My massive list of suggestions (Updated 05/17/2016).  Feel free to constructively debate and discuss.

Remember remember the 17th of September, the Tirpitz; which cost a lot.  Some say it's a fortune, and that it's extortion; but the price will never be forgot.

 

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MorbidGamer #622 Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:55 AM

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View PostSub_Octavian, on 20 March 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

Don't worry, guys, no nerfs.
Actually, it won't hurt if you know - the torpedo bulkhead Big_Spud mentioned is tapered as we proposed (we saw you mostly liked the idea). We also double checked the possibility to lower the citadel space down to engine deck (as done on NC) and eventually, decided to give it a try. It actually may stack well with good rudder shift and bring more CQ tactics to the ship. If it does not make ship OP, gives more players option not to bow-on and makes you happier about the ship..why not? We will check this, and if everything is OK, that will be her final state for release. The changes are taking effect in 0.6.2.2.

 

Glad you guys are taking good feedback and testing it... Hope it works out. 

aradragoon #623 Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:57 AM

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View PostBig_Spud, on 20 March 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

 

No, I can't agree to that. Its no longer WG's policy to intentionally gimp premiums anymore if you haven't noticed. The last time they did it with a high tier premium was with Prinz Eugen, and people STILL complain about how its just a mediocre copy of Hipper, and it doesn't perform very well either.

 

If you haven't noticed, Texas is a better New York. Indianapolis is a better Pensacola. Missouri is a better Iowa. Arizona is a better New Mexico. Sims is a better Mahan. Konig Albert is a downtiered Kaiser thats OP as [edited]. Scharnhorst is a flat out better ship than Gneisenau. Belfast is a downtiered Edinburgh thats OP as [edited]. Atago is effectively a better Mogami, and Kutuzov is a better Chapayev.

 

Alabama with a lowered citadel will probably SLIGHTLY edge out North Carolina in practical use, but it won't be overpowered.

 

I disagree with a few of your statements.

Indianapolis was a Portland class while Pensacola was a Pensacola class. The Pensacola class was succeeded by the Northampton class which was succeeded by the Portland Class which was succeeded by the New Orleans Class.

So while it is better than Pensacola (T7) it can't be better than the New Orleans (T8) Its a T7.5 if you will and while Indy has some strengths it does lose 1 round per salvo.

Arizona has 356mm/45 while NM has 356mm/50 which I find to make a difference though the armor on the Arizona does slightly better and the range is slightly better but also loses AA.

Belfast I think is listed as Edin. class in game but to my knowledge was actually a town class either way it loses British AP for normal AP and rather weak HE. Last I checked it under performs the Fiji slightly.

I find Scharny and Gneis perform different roles and the 11" doesn't perform consistently but I can't find it better than Gneis.

Atago might be like a better 8" Mogami but I still prefer the 6" Mogami which then comes down to different missions. I like all the extra rounds per salvo and in that case see them as also performing different roles.

Haven't played Chapy yet.

I agree that Texas is better, Missouri is better and Konig is amazing.

This still makes it a long shot from being premiums better than line ships usually its just gimmicks to make them play a little differently. Alabama seems like it will be a more 8 - 15km brawler based on what I have seen on forums and video reviews. NC on the other hand I find better as second line support at 10 - 17km.

R_Razor #624 Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:59 AM

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So Buffs with no Nerfs......someone best go check on ISSM and make sure he didn't stroke out. 

So sayeth the moron:

 

"I'm not going to take a ban at all. I've invested far too much and have the money for a lawyer if needed and or I would drag WG N/A through small claims and force them to defend restricting access to my account for a system they allow to exist within game. So deal with that. That's the reality of the situation".

 


YamatoA150 #625 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:10 AM

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View Postaradragoon, on 20 March 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

View PostBig_Spud, on 20 March 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

Spoiler

 

 

I disagree with a few of your statements.
 
Spoiler

 

 

There's also Mutsu (worse than Nagato, and only even with Fuso despite all the buffs given just to make her work), Marblehead (worse), Oleg (worse), Krispy Kreme (worse and uptiered), and until the IJN DD split, Fujin/Kamikaze/Kami.R (slightly worse then made OP by default and retired).

 

And until they switch around Ishizuchi's gun range and detected by sea ranges, she can count as well.

 

So there's a number of Premiums that are also slightly inferior to their tier equivalents as well.

 

I'm actually hoping the lowered citadel proves not OP; it just makes a stronger case for lowering the Yamato's citadel and restoration of all battleship maneuverability.  Moreso considering that Octavian said that they're hoping the concept will reduce bow-camping play, especially with Alabama, since battleships would also be able to make tight, fast turns like they were designed to.  We'd finally be back to where BBs should have been left at.  Then they can finally start buffing IJN torpedoes again.


My massive list of suggestions (Updated 05/17/2016).  Feel free to constructively debate and discuss.

Remember remember the 17th of September, the Tirpitz; which cost a lot.  Some say it's a fortune, and that it's extortion; but the price will never be forgot.

 

"I call her the Sandman.  She tells other tier 3 ships, "Hush now.  Only dreams," as she murders them."LittleWhiteMouse on Konig Albert - 08/30/2016


CybrSlydr #626 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:12 AM

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View PostR_Razor, on 20 March 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

So Buffs with no Nerfs......someone best go check on ISSM and make sure he didn't stroke out. 

 

+100000

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CybrSlydr #627 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:14 AM

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View PostYamatoA150, on 20 March 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

I'm actually hoping the lowered citadel proves not OP; it just makes a stronger case for lowering the Yamato's citadel and restoration of all battleship maneuverability.  Moreso considering that Octavian said that they're hoping the concept will reduce bow-camping play, especially with Alabama, since battleships would also be able to make tight, fast turns like they were designed to.  We'd finally be back to where BBs should have been left at.  Then they can finally start buffing IJN torpedoes again.

 

More +100000

 

(but let's not get too crazy with those torps yo)


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Airbane425 #628 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:16 AM

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View PostR_Razor, on 20 March 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

So Buffs with no Nerfs......someone best go check on ISSM and make sure he didn't stroke out. 

 

:D If I had any more +1s i'd give em

KaptainKaybe #629 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:18 AM

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View PostBig_Spud, on 20 March 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

 

Or its just a North Carolina with slightly worse AA, less HP, slightly less accurate guns, in exchange for a better TDS and turning circle.

 

It's not magically a Nikolai because of that.

 

This. Alabama would already be fairly balanced with a waterline citadel. At least now we'll be able to play to her strengths.

 

It'd like comparing New Mexico to Arizona. One has more accurate guns and slightly better armor, while the other has guns with better penetration and better AA. Neither Arizona or Alabama would be OP like Nikolai or Gremy. Even Kutuzov, also at tier 8, would be considered more OP than waterline citadel Alabama.



KnightFandragon #630 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:19 AM

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View PostR_Razor, on 21 March 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

So Buffs with no Nerfs......someone best go check on ISSM and make sure he didn't stroke out. 

 

Im pretty damn sure thats why we havent heard from them all day. 

renegadestatuz #631 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:19 AM

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View PostR_Razor, on 20 March 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

So Buffs with no Nerfs......someone best go check on ISSM and make sure he didn't stroke out. 

 

Idgaf how many days left we have in 2017, this qualifies as best comment of the year!!!! :D


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Airbane425 #632 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:19 AM

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Icon Name Tier Type Nation Battles WR ▼ Dmg XP K/D Sh☠ Pl☠ Srv MBH TH
           
PGSB108.png Bismarck 8 BB   1,198,847 52.36% 61,687 1,345 1.5 0.9 2.1 36% 28% 0%
PJSB013.png Amagi 8 BB   1,396,232 51.72% 58,876 1,241 1.6 0.9 2.0 45% 24% 0%
PGSB002.png Tirpitz 8 BB   2,509,916 49.61% 50,022 1,303 1.2 0.7 1.7 39% 25% 9%
PASB012.png North Carolina 8 BB   2,901,127 49.33% 50,320 1,171 1.3 0.7 2.9 41% 23% 0%

 

Honestly guys, I don't think it will be game breaking considering what its tech-tree equivalent is doing.....


Edited by Airbane425, 21 March 2017 - 02:21 AM.


renegadestatuz #633 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:20 AM

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View PostKnightFandragon, on 20 March 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

 

Im pretty damn sure thats why we havent heard from them all day. 

 

He's been hiding over in the CV threads. What else is new...


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KnightFandragon #634 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:21 AM

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View PostYamatoA150, on 21 March 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

 

Wouldn't that be Missouri once they lower her citadel?  She can do almost everything Alabama can but better for the USN, only losing out in maneuverability and TDS.

 

And technically cheaper too.

 

Ill say no to the Missouri, since the Mo is either a huge grind wall or a huge paycheck. 

 

Alabama, unless im mistaken, will just be in the premium shop to purchase.  Honestly, I wish they let us play the thing on PTS before we decided if we wanted to buy it.  If they do in fact lower its citadel, I prolly would have to nab it. 



KnightFandragon #635 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:23 AM

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View PostAirbane425, on 21 March 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

Icon Name Tier Type Nation Battles WR ▼ Dmg XP K/D Sh☠ Pl☠ Srv MBH TH
           
PGSB108.png Bismarck 8 BB   1,198,847 52.36% 61,687 1,345 1.5 0.9 2.1 36% 28% 0%
PJSB013.png Amagi 8 BB   1,396,232 51.72% 58,876 1,241 1.6 0.9 2.0 45% 24% 0%
PGSB002.png Tirpitz 8 BB   2,509,916 49.61% 50,022 1,303 1.2 0.7 1.7 39% 25% 9%
PASB012.png North Carolina 8 BB   2,901,127 49.33% 50,320 1,171 1.3 0.7 2.9 41% 23% 0%

 

Honestly guys, I don't think it will be game breaking considering what its tech-tree equivalent is doing.....

 

Yeah, if it ends up falling somewhere between the Amagi and Tirpitz, we can call that a good day.  If it falls between the Bismarck and Amagi, we can call that a success and finally claim the USN has a truly GOOD Battleship.  Well, besides the AZ.

YamatoA150 #636 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:27 AM

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View PostCybrSlydr, on 20 March 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

More +100000

 

(but let's not get too crazy with those torps yo)

 

WG is already going crazy with the torps.

 

After trying to defend their pointless nerfing of IJN torpedoes, they then go and release Shiratsuyu, capable of putting up a wall of 16 torpedoes.

 

Then they release Robotnik, which while the torps only have a short range, is able to output what, 12 fish in short order with almost no way to dodge them?

 

All the need to do now is release Kitakami, then unnerf battleship maneuverability, and finally unnerf IJN torpedoes, so that pure potatoes in the high tiers can actually be sent back to port faster or forced to downgrade tiers to rebuild their silver reserves.

 

Then start buffing IJN cruisers with more torp options.


My massive list of suggestions (Updated 05/17/2016).  Feel free to constructively debate and discuss.

Remember remember the 17th of September, the Tirpitz; which cost a lot.  Some say it's a fortune, and that it's extortion; but the price will never be forgot.

 

"I call her the Sandman.  She tells other tier 3 ships, "Hush now.  Only dreams," as she murders them."LittleWhiteMouse on Konig Albert - 08/30/2016


mofton #637 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:28 AM

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View PostWardog_Noir, on 20 March 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

If by P2W, you mean that Alabama will accurately represent the fact that the South Dakota class was designed to correct some of the deficiencies of the North Carolina class and arguably was a superior ship to begin with, then yes.

 

Besides, is it really P2W if the premium is possibly superior to one of the worst performing battleships in the tier?  I honestly don't see it stomping Bismarck any time soon.

 

Just because South Dakota's were supposed to succeed the North Carolina's doesn't mean they need to be better in this game as implemented at the same tier. If it were so much better then you could argue for making it T9... but don't do that.

 

View PostBig_Spud, on 20 March 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

Or its just a North Carolina with slightly worse AA, less HP, slightly less accurate guns, in exchange for a better TDS and turning circle.

 

WG said after 4 rounds of testing (and most reviews agreed) that the ship was strong but balanced by the high citadel. By removing that one flaw either WG and the reviewers were mistaken and it was bad before, or it will now stray into 'too good' territory. The differences between them are somewhat up to the individual to weight - is AA worth much when there are f-all CV's in game and it's still superb? Is maneuverability always worthwhile? Is a 49% vs 19% TDS modifier significant if you may never take torpedoes at all, may still flood and TDS doesn't cover the whole ship? Is a 1.8 vs 1.9 sigma relevant?

 

View PostWardog_Noir, on 20 March 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Besides, is it really P2W if the premium is possibly superior to one of the worst performing battleships in the tier?

 

I don't think North Carolina is as bad as the stats suggest. She certainly beats Tirpitz despite having a bad stock grind. Amagi is and always has been strong. Bismarck looks good on paper but - in competitive gaming:

https://www.youtube....h?v=Df8b1Ub_CDI - 4 North Carolina's, 1 Bismarck, 1 Tirpitz

https://www.youtube....h?v=RsXxPDiTdL8 - 2 North Carolina's, 1 Bismarck, 1 Amagi

https://www.youtube....h?v=uoso8UR7lJ8 - 3 North Carolina's, 1 Amagi

 

I think there's a case that North Carolina is actually a fine ship just difficult to use and possibly still stained by her prior reputation with lower sigma and worse aft turret traverse. I don't think she's crap at all.

View PostBig_Spud, on 20 March 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

No more P2W than the Texas's massively better AA VS New York, or Indianapolis getting radar when Pensacola doesn't.
 

 

Those are not necessarily 'good things' either though, and at least the ships are different if better or worse. The differences between this proposed Alabama and North Carolina are pretty slim aside from the 30% better TDS. Scharnhorst may be better than Gneisenau (on which I agree) but at least she's better while being different.

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KnightFandragon #638 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:30 AM

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View PostYamatoA150, on 21 March 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

 

WG is already going crazy with the torps.

 

After trying to defend their pointless nerfing of IJN torpedoes, they then go and release Shiratsuyu, capable of putting up a wall of 16 torpedoes.

 

Then they release Robotnik, which while the torps only have a short range, is able to output what, 12 fish in short order with almost no way to dodge them?

 

All the need to do now is release Kitakami, then unnerf battleship maneuverability, and finally unnerf IJN torpedoes, so that pure potatoes in the high tiers can actually be sent back to port faster or forced to downgrade tiers to rebuild their silver reserves.

 

Yeah, they need to reduce the torp spam...dear god.  PVE is over in a matter of seconds cuz 4 cruisers, 2 destroyers and a German BB roll forward and torp spam everything before my NC even gets in the action.....that or they all die from failed torp runs and im stuck facing off against 5 ships...

Airbane425 #639 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:30 AM

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View PostYamatoA150, on 20 March 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

All the need to do now is release Kitakami

 



Destroyer_Kiyoshimo #640 Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:39 AM

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View PostYamatoA150, on 20 March 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Then they can finally start buffing IJN torpedoes again.

 

That's a nice thought but you know they won't.

 

View PostAirbane425, on 20 March 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

 

 

Man I have to wonder if even half of the chimpanzees who scream "NO KITAKAMI EVER" even played a game with one on their team. It was not anywhere near as bad as the claims, even with a 3-Kitakami division.


Edited by Destroyer_Kiyoshimo, 21 March 2017 - 02:40 AM.

 Kiyoshimo's aircraft carrier rework Kiyoshimo's Torpedo Campaign

AP is the ship-killer. AP is the heavy death that brings total obliteration. I will face their AP. I will permit it to pass over me and bounce from me. And when it has passed, I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the AP has gone there will be nothing.

Only I will remain. 

 






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