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'Sky Cancer Hell Weekend' really shines a light on why CVs are so broken.


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twitch133 #21 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:28 PM

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This game from last night is exactly why I do not like CV's. Our CV is no slouch, in most other ships. Checking out his page, he is a very good player in most ships, but faced off against the very, very good enemy Shokaku, there was just no hope for this round. Even though we had players in all of our other ships that were theoretically stronger....

 

There were a few mistakes early on that helped out. One of our strongest cruiser players was deleted early. We let a Benson have free reign to harass myself and our FDG for the whole game, just to name a few. But, based on the skill levels of the other players, we should have easily had this round, the CV changed all of that.

 

I really believe that 66% of your chance of winning or losing is solely on the back of your CV. And that is where they aggravate me. I feel like nothing more than fodder on the playing field while the two CV drivers play their own game against each other, while farming token damage off the other 11 players.


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Canadatron #22 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:30 PM

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View PostMadCard05, on 12 March 2017 - 02:13 AM, said:

Which is why they're redoing CVs to fix the disparity between players.

 

I'd argue though that having complete potato BBs on your team is almost as bad. 

 

It's a problem because Battleships make up 1/2 the teams now. You need your battleships to counter their battleships due to HP pools alone. If your Battleships fall flat you can't come back from the loss of their DPS.
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Zampy #23 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:34 PM

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View PostMadCard05, on 12 March 2017 - 02:13 AM, said:

Which is why they're redoing CVs to fix the disparity between players.

 

I'd argue though that having complete potato BBs on your team is almost as bad. 

 

​Bad DD players are worse.

MrDeaf #24 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:37 PM

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View PostZampy, on 12 March 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

 

​Bad DD players are worse.

 

bad DD player will make you lose early

bad BB player will make you lose late

bad CV player is instant loss.


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twitch133 #25 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:39 PM

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View PostMrDeaf, on 12 March 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

 

bad DD player will make you lose early

bad BB player will make you lose late

bad worse CV player is instant loss.

 

FTFY...

 

Your CV player does not have to be red to lose the game for you before the countdown even finishes. Just not as good as the other guy.


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Reymu #26 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:54 PM

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Thanks for reminding me I should run my Taiho, help do my part to counter DD stealth and get BBs to turn broadside to my team's BBs.

 

People need to quit crying about "sky cancer" (insult to folk that've seen the terror in their friends or family) and instead learn to move in groups.

 

That works for enough of the match, seeing as AA feels OP whenever AA builds group up.


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Nukelavee45 #27 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:55 PM

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View Posttwitch133, on 12 March 2017 - 09:39 AM, said:

 

FTFY...

 

Your CV player does not have to be red to lose the game for you before the countdown even finishes. Just not as good as the other guy.

 

Being not as good as the other guy(s) is why everybody loses.  RNG/luck on both sides is a factor that can be ignored in this context.  And, the argument that, with all other players being equal rating, it's down to the CV rating is making a flawed assumption - ratings are average performance.  Anybody can be a waste of potential in any given match, anybody can manage to look like an MVP in any given match.

twitch133 #28 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:58 PM

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View PostNukelavee45, on 12 March 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

 

Being not as good as the other guy(s) is why everybody loses.  RNG/luck on both sides is a factor that can be ignored in this context.  And, the argument that, with all other players being equal rating, it's down to the CV rating is making a flawed assumption - ratings are average performance.  Anybody can be a waste of potential in any given match, anybody can manage to look like an MVP in any given match.

 

This is where the problem sits. Yes, by not being as good as the next guy, that is how you lose.

 

The problem is, the team can generally pick up the slack from one bad DD player (even one that gets deleted within the first 2 minutes dealing 0 damage), or one bad BB player, or several bad cruiser players.

 

One bad CV player though???? HA!


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Aduial #29 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:59 PM

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View Posttwitch133, on 12 March 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

 

This is where the problem sits. Yes, by not being as good as the next guy, that is how you lose.

 

The problem is, the team can generally pick up the slack from one bad DD player (even one that gets deleted within the first 2 minutes dealing 0 damage), or one bad BB player, or several bad cruiser players.

 

One bad CV player though???? HA!

 

Would you prefer it if there were two CVs every single match so the second carrier can "pick up the slack"?

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Nefelis #30 Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:01 PM

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CVs from Japan have better mods. Some American CVs are forced to give up ALL fighters to get damage and become vulnerable to Japanese fighters.

twitch133 #31 Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:04 PM

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View PostAduial, on 12 March 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

 

Would you prefer it if there were two CVs every single match so the second carrier can "pick up the slack"?

 

Honestly, I am at a complete and total loss on how to fix the problem with balancing CV's. I doubt that any of the changes in the upcoming patch are going to make a real, tangible difference.

 

Its the fact that CV's are playing a completely different game than any of the other three classes. Literally. DD, CA/CL, BB, they are all playing something akin to a third person shooter or action MMO. CV's are playing a top down RTS.

 

How the hell.... can you reconcile those two in a way that is balanced and engaging, with meaningful, two way combat for both sides? I have no clue.


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Slimeball91 #32 Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:12 PM

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View PostRedSeaBear, on 12 March 2017 - 02:26 AM, said:

You know what gets me about CV mission weekends?

I take out my AA cruisers to farm plane kills,,,,I mean protect my fleet from Sky Cancer and I barely see one CV let alone be able to down planes. 

But Take a ship with weak AA defense and those scrubby CVs are all over me. 

I need a way to cloak my Cleveland or Atlanta so it looks like a defenseless Destroyers or clueless Battleship. 

 

Yes, forget concealment, and dispersion, when I'm in my AA cruisers I want a clueless battleship camo.:trollface:

Taichunger #33 Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:29 PM

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View PostReymu, on 12 March 2017 - 10:54 PM, said:

 

People need to quit crying about "sky cancer" (insult to folk that've seen the terror in their friends or family) and instead learn to move in groups.


Total nonsense. You can't move in groups, not with ships dying and caps spread out. CVs are cancerous and need to be removed from the game.

 

WG only keeps CVs in to reduce its costs. They have no positive game function, and game after game without them works perfectly well. Interactions with other players, especially when they are good, are enjoyable and stimulating. No interaction with a CV is enjoyable, except burning them.

 

No one ever writes posts in the forum complaining that they played five games that day without a CV and how terrible that was. Instead the forum is filled with complaints about CVs, and rightly so, since they degrade gameplay and inflict pointless cancerous damage on ships for no reason at all. 

 

CV play is unethical, unethical to put them in the game, unethical to play them. 


 


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Slimeball91 #34 Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:53 PM

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View PostReymu, on 12 March 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

Thanks for reminding me I should run my Taiho, help do my part to counter DD stealth and get BBs to turn broadside to my team's BBs.

 

People need to quit crying about "sky cancer" (insult to folk that've seen the terror in their friends or family) and instead learn to move in groups.

 

That works for enough of the match, seeing as AA feels OP whenever AA builds group up.

 

That would work, but that's not how the game is played.  There are some many elements at play with the CV problem that it is hard to fix, and that's why is hasn't been "fixed".  The big problem is that the game dynamics and balancing, as of now, are for few CV matches.  If the number of CV matches goes up in any meaningful way the game dynamics and balancing are going to get screwed up and people will notice (and complain).  We are seeing this in mini form now with the carrier weekend. 

 

My experience from yesterday if you're so inclined to read it. 

Spoiler

 



cometguy #35 Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:54 PM

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I assume these were tier 8 CVs, because there is no tier 9 load out that has no fighters. And if a t8 CV wrecks in a t10 game, it says more about the team being wrecked than CVS in general.

Chrifister #36 Posted 12 March 2017 - 04:16 PM

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View Posttwitch133, on 12 March 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

I really believe that 66% of your chance of winning or losing is solely on the back of your CV. And that is where they aggravate me. I feel like nothing more than fodder on the playing field while the two CV drivers play their own game against each other, while farming token damage off the other 11 players.

This is the main reason why people don't like CVs and why they can never be balanced with the other ships. They are not playing the same game as everybody else. They can attack anywhere on the map with no risk to themselves for a third of the game while everybody else just has to accept it. That's not fun for the other 22 players.

 

Imagine how fun it would be if every ship had a self destruct function and 2 people watching the game took turns rolling the dice to see who was the next to push the button and sink a ship? Same concept and no it wouldn't be very fun.

 

AA builds are pointless and just a detriment to your team. You don't see enough CVs to make it worthwhile. In every game without CVs, your ship is disadvantaged compared to everybody else with proper offensive builds. Even in matches with CVs, your AA build only helps you against the single enemy CV and puts you at a disadvantage versus every other enemy. There's also the issue that AA bubbles are so small that unless you're scraping hulls with somebody, the planes will just come in from the other side of the ship you're supposed to protect.

 

Curiously WG decided that higher tier ships should lose maneuverability while CVs gain more squadrons? How does that make sense?

 

Lately I've noticed people have realized that AA builds are not useful so you hardly see them anymore. This makes it even worse when you do land in a match with CVs and no AA builds.

 

And let's not forget about MM's tendency to put a lone BB off on the very edge of the map waiting for the inevitable and undefended CV strike. Fun and engaging!

 

CVs are in the game and will not be removed. Fine. Remove manual drops and balance the squadron numbers between the CV nations. Then they will not be the main deciding factors in the game and should do damage comparable to the other classes. This fixes the skill gaps as well.


Edited by Chrifister, 12 March 2017 - 04:17 PM.


Soshi_Sone #37 Posted 12 March 2017 - 04:19 PM

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When I play Baltimore, I usually run AA.  If a carrier is present, I try to find the Battle group that needs AA support and run AA for that group the first half of the game.  Oddly enough, I only see a CV about 20% of my games.  And in about half of those the CV captain avoids me altogether.

 

Although my stats with Balt are kinda poor, I am extremely effective in AA role.  I try to run interference and catch 'em before they make an attack run.  The smart CV captains try to bait me, and when I don't fall for it, they go somewhere else.  The overly aggressive ones just continue, and once they are committed, I go high alert and shred 'em bad.  Ships I escort rarely get hit by an air attack. 

 

So, for all you BB players...when you see a Balt headed your way just after the game begins when a CV is present...let 'em hook up.  I pretty much follow the BB (or main BB group), as long as they are engaging properly (i.e., don't hang in the back and snipe).

 

All said, 90% of my high alert premiums are wasted because CVs either don't show, or don't want to play with me.  Bring on the sky cancer.  Chemo is ready. 



twitch133 #38 Posted 12 March 2017 - 04:20 PM

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View PostChrifister, on 12 March 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

This is the main reason why people don't like CVs and why they can never be balanced with the other ships. They are not playing the same game as everybody else. They can attack anywhere on the map with no risk to themselves for a third of the game while everybody else just has to accept it. That's not fun for the other 22 players.

 

Imagine how fun it would be if every ship had a self destruct function and 2 people watching the game took turns rolling the dice to see who was the next to push the button and sink a ship? Same concept and no it wouldn't be very fun.

 

AA builds are pointless and just a detriment to your team. You don't see enough CVs to make it worthwhile. In every game without CVs, your ship is disadvantaged compared to everybody else with proper offensive builds. Even in matches with CVs, your AA build only helps you against the single enemy CV and puts you at a disadvantage versus every other enemy. There's also the issue that AA bubbles are so small that unless you're scraping hulls with somebody, the planes will just come in from the other side of the ship you're supposed to protect.

 

Curiously WG decided that higher tier ships should lose maneuverability while CVs gain more squadrons? How does that make sense?

 

Lately I've noticed people have realized that AA builds are not useful so you hardly see them anymore. This makes it even worse when you do land in a match with CVs and no AA builds.

 

And let's not forget about MM's tendency to put a lone BB off on the very edge of the map waiting for the inevitable and undefended CV strike. Fun and engaging!

 

CVs are in the game and will not be removed. Fine. Remove manual drops and balance the squadron numbers between the CV nations. Then they will not be the main deciding factors in the game and should do damage comparable to the other classes. This fixes the skill gaps as well.

 

I would even go as far as saying they are the Slenderman of Warships.

 

You can go for most of the round avoiding them. But they will always be slowly catching up to you, following the clues to find you. Until they pop up out of the dark and you have a heart attack.

 

It is fun suspense in a game where avoiding that is the sole objective. But, when you are also having to fight other characters at the same time...


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Nukelavee45 #39 Posted 12 March 2017 - 05:50 PM

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View PostTaichunger, on 12 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:


Total nonsense. You can't move in groups, not with ships dying and caps spread out. CVs are cancerous and need to be removed from the game.

 

WG only keeps CVs in to reduce its costs. They have no positive game function, and game after game without them works perfectly well. Interactions with other players, especially when they are good, are enjoyable and stimulating. No interaction with a CV is enjoyable, except burning them.

 

No one ever writes posts in the forum complaining that they played five games that day without a CV and how terrible that was. Instead the forum is filled with complaints about CVs, and rightly so, since they degrade gameplay and inflict pointless cancerous damage on ships for no reason at all. 

 

CV play is unethical, unethical to put them in the game, unethical to play them. 


 

 

And, again, you fall back on empty statements.   I enjoy matches with CV's in them.  So, that renders your point no interactions with them are enjoyable false.

 

And, again - their inclusion has nothing to do with ethics.  Stop misusing the concept.



crzyhawk #40 Posted 12 March 2017 - 06:15 PM

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View PostNukelavee45, on 12 March 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

 

And, again, you fall back on empty statements.   I enjoy matches with CV's in them.  So, that renders your point no interactions with them are enjoyable false.

 

And, again - their inclusion has nothing to do with ethics.  Stop misusing the concept.

 

It's not an empty statement.  The majority of players, as evidenced by the number of sky cancer hate threads...do not like CVs.  WG has admitted this, they have come right out and said their players do not want Midway, they want Jutland.





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