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Most Destroyers at the end... always wins


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soundman_yeagerfly #1 Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:37 AM

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Hello Gamers !

My observation about the game up to Tier X even, is that this I a DD dominated game.  Maybe no surprise to many, but it poses some important tactical and strategic discussions, hence, Soundman's Rules:


 

Soundman's Rule 1.   The most Destroyers at the end, always, wins.

Soundman's Rule 2.   Therefore, the primary and only initial objective of Destroyers for maximum team benefit, is to Kill the Enemy Destroyers.  First before

Soundman's Rule 3.   Destroyers should not focus on capping, over seeking out and destroyers to clear the field

Soundman's Rule 4.   Battleship guns - wound.  Destroyer torps - sink.


 

Some discussion.  The maps as we all know are vastly too small for realism.  Carrier vs Carrier wars (only CV) maps of say 200x200 should be considered.

Take note of our games - look at how many times Rule 1, most DD at the end - wins, is in fact proven true.   I've done about 50 battles. maybe 2 it didn't 98% is pretty "sound".

Once you see this, then you will understand - that IF at the end... the MOST DD's always win - then at the BEGGINING -  your team's dd's and ca's must prioritize killing the enemy dd's.


 



Pulicat #2 Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:56 AM

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There is a difference between winning with the most dds alive, and winning BECAUSE you have the most dds alive.  A lack of any class allows the same & countered class more freedom for the opposition.

 


RivertheRoyal #3 Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:57 AM

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I'm just going to put this here, first and foremost. River's Guide to Writing a Good Post.

 

Also, I wish to point out that destroyers need to cap. That's how you win games, right there. You are also looking at this through too narrow a lens. A good cruiser captain, and a good battleship captain are just as valuable as a good destroyer captain in the late game, and this only becomes more true at the higher tiers.

Though, generally it is a good idea to kill the enemy DD's first. It shouldn't be only your friendly DD's who are focusing on that task however—anyone with working guns should be firing at spotted DD's, no matter the class.   



ckupf #4 Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:18 AM

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DDs are obviously incredibly useful in late close battles, perhaps more so than any other class, but that is offset by their tendency to die early. They are good at taking and defending caps, running away from engagements, and surprise attacks which are super necessary when the enemy outnumbers you.

 

That being said this is not an absolute rule, just a reasonable conjecture. DDs that hang back and avoid contact for the first half of the battle so as to survive do their teams a disservice as a close battle won't likely occur. So yes rule #2 is not entirely wrong, killing DDs is a major part of a DD's job. But it is not everything. Plenty of battles that are roughly even in ship numbers end on points, so yes caps are important. Don't ignore them or the late game DD survival you desire won't matter. "Rule 4" is just dumb, BBs get plenty of kills, and guns are better than torps for finishing off wounded enemies. BBs get more kills than DDs, it's that simple. Also, in every DD line except IJN I get far more gun kills than torp kills. Guns kill, torps wound would be more apt. But either way it's wrong. 

 

How about replace these "rules" the following:

 

Ckupf's Conjecture #1: Destroyers are more valuable than Battleships and Cruisers in late and close games (ceteris paribus).

Ckupf's Conjecture #2: Destroyers should try and kill enemy destroyers and facilitate their killing as one of several main objectives.

Ckupf's Conjecture #3: Caps have a finite value that depends on the situation. DDs should respond to the situation and act accordingly, remembering that their survival in the early game is more valuable than a single cap.

Ckupf's Conjecture #4: Doing enough damage to reduce the enemy's HP to 0 kills, no matter the weapon. (Okay that one is not a conjecture it is more of a "rule")

 

Much better.



_WaveRider_ #5 Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:30 AM

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View Postckupf, on 09 March 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

DDs are obviously incredibly useful in late close battles, perhaps more so than any other class, but that is offset by their tendency to die early. They are good at taking and defending caps, running away from engagements, and surprise attacks which are super necessary when the enemy outnumbers you.

 

That being said this is not an absolute rule, just a reasonable conjecture. DDs that hang back and avoid contact for the first half of the battle so as to survive do their teams a disservice as a close battle won't likely occur. So yes rule #2 is not entirely wrong, killing DDs is a major part of a DD's job. But it is not everything. Plenty of battles that are roughly even in ship numbers end on points, so yes caps are important. Don't ignore them or the late game DD survival you desire won't matter. "Rule 4" is just dumb, BBs get plenty of kills, and guns are better than torps for finishing off wounded enemies. BBs get more kills than DDs, it's that simple. Also, in every DD line except IJN I get far more gun kills than torp kills. Guns kill, torps wound would be more apt. But either way it's wrong.

 

How about replace these "rules" the following:

 

Ckupf's Conjecture #1: Destroyers are more valuable than Battleships and Cruisers in late and close games (ceteris paribus).

Ckupf's Conjecture #2: Destroyers should try and kill enemy destroyers and facilitate their killing as one of several main objectives.

Ckupf's Conjecture #3: Caps have a finite value that depends on the situation. DDs should respond to the situation and act accordingly, remembering that their survival in the early game is more valuable than a single cap.

Ckupf's Conjecture #4: Doing enough damage to reduce the enemy's HP to 0 kills, no matter the weapon. (Okay that one is not a conjecture it is more of a "rule")

 

Much better.

 

+1

 

I would add that although Caps in a Cap game are obviously important, DDs do not 'need'  to cap. I don't know how many times I have not rushed into a cap but spotted other DDs that have. They have died, I have gone elsewhere to provide support whilst the CAs or BBs have capped. With aircraft and so many DDs about, capping is not a class only role.


 

and Battleship Guns only wound other Battleships, they can kill CAs and DDs outright.



ckupf #6 Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:55 AM

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View Post_WaveRider_, on 09 March 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

and Battleship Guns only wound other Battleships, they can kill CAs and DDs outright.

 

One shotting a BB with a BB is my favorite thing to do in this game. Yes, even BBs are one-shottable to the right guns. The image below is from when I hit a Monty with my Monty for 7 citadels just inside 8km. I've killed an Iowa with 2 volleys from a Moskva at 6km. Also  BBs can fire a couple volleys for each torp drop that DDs drop AND they have a hit rate in excess of 20% as opposed to below 10%.

 

Spoiler

 



_WaveRider_ #7 Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:17 AM

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View Postckupf, on 09 March 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

 

One shotting a BB with a BB is my favorite thing to do in this game. Yes, even BBs are one-shottable to the right guns. The image below is from when I hit a Monty with my Monty for 7 citadels just inside 8km. I've killed an Iowa with 2 volleys from a Moskva at 6km. Also  BBs can fire a couple volleys for each torp drop that DDs drop AND they have a hit rate in excess of 20% as opposed to below 10%.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I stand corrected sir, a +1 for pointing out my mistake (thank you). :honoring:

ArcDeath #8 Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:26 PM

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Agree. DDs should seek out and destroy enemy DDs as their top priority and then help others. They should not CAP until enemy DDs are gone.

 



twitch133 #9 Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:42 PM

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View Post_WaveRider_, on 09 March 2017 - 02:30 AM, said:

 

+1

 

I would add that although Caps in a Cap game are obviously important, DDs do not 'need'  to cap. I don't know how many times I have not rushed into a cap but spotted other DDs that have. They have died, I have gone elsewhere to provide support whilst the CAs or BBs have capped. With aircraft and so many DDs about, capping is not a class only role.


 

and Battleship Guns only wound other Battleships, they can kill CAs and DDs outright.

 

While it is nice to have the initiative of an early cap...

 

It is my opinion that a live DD is more valuable than an early cap... There are some exceptions to this... but it is my general rule. If I cannot get that early cap without undue risk to my ship, I am going to back off and restratagize.


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soundman_yeagerfly #10 Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:15 PM

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Thank you all for a productive and hopefully to some extent, useful discussion.  I appreciate all the comments.

 

There is no question that Ckupf has more clearly articulated these DD rules.  I yield to your excellent statement sir.


 

Ckupf's Conjecture #1: Destroyers are more valuable than Battleships and Cruisers in late and close games (ceteris paribus).

Ckupf's Conjecture #2: Destroyers should try and kill enemy destroyers and facilitate their killing as one of several main objectives.

Ckupf's Conjecture #3: Caps have a finite value that depends on the situation. DDs should respond to the situation and act accordingly, remembering that their survival in the early game is more valuable than a single cap.

Ckupf's Conjecture #4: Doing enough damage to reduce the enemy's HP to 0 kills, no matter the weapon. (Okay that one is not a conjecture it is more of a "rule")

 

Much better. = AGREE !

 

 

 


Edited by soundman_yeagerfly, 09 March 2017 - 06:16 PM.


RivertheRoyal #11 Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:22 PM

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Right. Now that that's sorted out, let me throw the wrench into the gears. 

 

Anti-DD cruisers. It's a nightmare when the red team has one late game, and your team has two or three DD's left. 

 

Instead of calling them rules, it's be a bit better to have them placed down as suggestions, since a rule must be true all the time. Circumstances may prevail to unravel your rules, in which case they aren't true anymore. 



Seamus_44 #12 Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:03 PM

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Hate to be a spoil-sport, but there is no magic formula that sets up a win at any tier, esp. higher tiers. While my domination mode motto is cap, hold, kill=win, it is always situational. My favorite ship is the Gearing, and I'll always scout and try to cap. But radar, RU dds, carriers, and Minotaurs can make pushing a cap early very risky. Then I wait and seek targets to level the playing field. A dead dd is not only useless, but increases the risk of losing the game. So does pushing a cap without supporting arms.
 
DDs putting all efforts on hunting other DDs alone is a fast way to lose on points if the other team caps, and if the other team kills your dds in the process it will happen even faster.
 
Each game has to be evaluated on the mix of map, ships, spawn locations, and then tactics need to be adjusted as the play unfolds. 


soundman_yeagerfly #13 Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:00 PM

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I agree with your comments Seamus.  Beyond the basic Ckupf's Conjectures, - Situation Assessment is the Cardinal 1st order of business.  So very rarely done even at X level.  Let discuss some obvious things, at least imho.

 

1.  Look at the map !!!

2. There is always an orthogonal centre-line by which first, the Number of ships, and then then the type and rank of ships can be viewed.

3. Since most tactics dictate maximizing time and space, and available power - logic says move in the direction of the most of the ships (the centre of mass..  so to say)


 

How many times are you frustrated (like me) to see one or two ships head off to C, when 8 are heading to A.  "I will just Scout".. umm before you die.. "I'll cap C".. for 2 minutes before you die and then the enemy caps, and we're down 1 or ships (usually dd).

For certain, there are also some very excellent team games, where like minded tactician agree on the obvious facts presented.. and play the hand we're dealt.


 

Its a bit like chess.  There is an Opening phase.

Opening - Kill dd's, gain superiority with your critical mass.  avoid mixed flanks ... focus on middle-left  or middle right

Middle game - leverage your time based and ship numerical space based superiority and DRIVE to the enemy .. even BBs now.. because hopefully some dd's ahead are eliminated.

End game - keep your CV alive if there - hopefully the CV, with the advantage of this thinking moves along with it


 

What do you think ?



_WaveRider_ #14 Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:51 PM

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View Posttwitch133, on 09 March 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

 

While it is nice to have the initiative of an early cap...

 

It is my opinion that a live DD is more valuable than an early cap... There are some exceptions to this... but it is my general rule. If I cannot get that early cap without undue risk to my ship, I am going to back off and restratagize.

 

Totally agree. That is why with all the chances of getting spotted, as an IJN DD player, I can't afford to be blinkered thinking it's my job to cap. In fact in one game a CV called Pinkgirlie ended up taking one of the caps. Now that's team play! :honoring:

Seamus_44 #15 Posted 29 April 2017 - 10:26 PM

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Each battle/game is it's own set of variables. What kind of destroyers are on each side, the number of caps, pairing of ships, skills of players. Caps early are needed, you lose points fast w/o caps if the other side has them. You also lose the ability to hold caps and points if ships die forcing them. You also lose if all ships push and most stay at one cap.

Had a game today in the Khab. Too hot at A and the Gearing could not hold it. I almost got killed. Moved off and played a role in keeping the reds bottled up at A as the points increased and both sides lost ships.  At the end, I was the only ship on my side against a DD, 2 CA and BB. I capped A as the got B and C, then the Yamato came and got A. Someone on my team called me a moron for being off to the side and saying I had to kill at least one ship. I ignored him. That's because the math was in our favor. I put one fish in the Yamato and he backed off just enough for the clock to run out. We won by 70 points and I got my 5th Solo Warrior. The key to the game is knowing the dynamics, your ship, and being tactically and strategically smart. The other element is luck. The better you are at the first four, the more likely you will be lucky.



Squidward_Tentpoles #16 Posted 01 May 2017 - 05:44 PM

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Yes, unless the DDs decide to go kamikaze and run straight into a fight that they clearly can't win, or the fact they charge headlong straight into a battleship and don't bother to zigzag. I've gotten quite a few instances of that happening.






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