Jump to content


The First of the Carrier Rework News (Speculation Plus Don't Expect "Big" Changes Yet)


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

StoneRhino #21 Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:50 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 726
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012
Saipan gets boring so fast though and the ammo buffs took away it's biggest downside

thelastholdout #22 Posted 11 March 2017 - 07:25 AM

    Chief Petty Officer

  • Members

  • 160
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012
Others have touched on this issue, but I'll reiterate:

By taking away alt attack at tier IV and V, you're removing the possibility that players will learn how to alt attack until tier 6. So you're going to have a much higher population of Independence and Ryujo drivers who don't even know how to do a manual drop or strafe. And now they have to learn how do it while getting their planes melted by tier 8 AA all the time, because the matchmaking meta sucks for tier 6 carriers right now.

Overall this is going to be a disastrous change that will make CVs even less popular, because noobs will play matches where they do no damage because auto drops suck, and they'll think "carriers are worthless," and they'll stop playing them.

Aduial #23 Posted 11 March 2017 - 01:16 PM

    Rear Admiral

  • Members

  • 6,799
  • Member since:
    11-06-2015

View PostZim_Xero, on 08 March 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

 

I think removing a game mechanic at a certain tier or set of tiers is a serious problem.  Its definitely not an elegant solution, in what is otherwise a consistent and elegant game.  They need to balance out those tiers instead of removing a game mechnanic.  My suggestion would be to make manual torpedo dropping a more efficient process for some ships than others... but a better solution would be this:

 

When manually dropping, your aircraft are 50% more susceptible to AA fire.

 

While your idea is better than what WG came up with, I still don't like it. Lower tier CVs don't have the hangar capacity to deal with something like that, and high tier AA can already be devastating. 

My terrible stats:

My Favorite ships: Mogami,  Clemson, T8 Fubuki, Mikasa, Gneisenau, Fletcher

Aduial's commander build recommendations (post 0.6.0)               Remove Detonations from Ranked battles                 Rebalancing Aircraft Loadouts          Repair Party for Tier 8 Cruisers?           Strafing:           Suggestion about carrier MM          


Reymu #24 Posted 11 March 2017 - 02:31 PM

    Commander

  • Members

  • 3,095
  • Member since:
    10-16-2015

View Postthelastholdout, on 11 March 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

Others have touched on this issue, but I'll reiterate:

By taking away alt attack at tier IV and V, you're removing the possibility that players will learn how to alt attack until tier 6. So you're going to have a much higher population of Independence and Ryujo drivers who don't even know how to do a manual drop or strafe. And now they have to learn how do it while getting their planes melted by tier 8 AA all the time, because the matchmaking meta sucks for tier 6 carriers right now.

Overall this is going to be a disastrous change that will make CVs even less popular, because noobs will play matches where they do no damage because auto drops suck, and they'll think "carriers are worthless," and they'll stop playing them.

 

If WG has not changed MM for T6 CVs, yes.

Always down for helping anyone learn. Hands-on guy, so I'll division with ya and observe how you're handling your ship. Click orange contacts button, use search bar for player's name, and right-click to add.


BrushWolf #25 Posted 11 March 2017 - 07:53 PM

    Rear Admiral

  • Alpha Tester

  • 7,660
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012

View Postthelastholdout, on 11 March 2017 - 01:25 AM, said:

Others have touched on this issue, but I'll reiterate:

By taking away alt attack at tier IV and V, you're removing the possibility that players will learn how to alt attack until tier 6. So you're going to have a much higher population of Independence and Ryujo drivers who don't even know how to do a manual drop or strafe. And now they have to learn how do it while getting their planes melted by tier 8 AA all the time, because the matchmaking meta sucks for tier 6 carriers right now.

Overall this is going to be a disastrous change that will make CVs even less popular, because noobs will play matches where they do no damage because auto drops suck, and they'll think "carriers are worthless," and they'll stop playing them.

 

Auto attacks need to drop a little closer, not so close that manual isn't better but close enough that a target that isn't paying attention is going to get hammered. With the current drop distance for auto drops Mr Magoo can avoid the attack.

Edited by BrushWolf, 11 March 2017 - 07:53 PM.

  

 

Ich lasse mir doch nicht mein Schiff unter dem Arsch wegschießen. Feuererlaubnis! (I'm not letting my ship get shot out from under my arse. Open fire!) Ernst Lindemann Captain KMS Bismarck

 


Vaporisor #26 Posted 11 March 2017 - 10:57 PM

    Ensign

  • Members

  • 868
  • Member since:
    01-09-2013

After my matches today, I gotta say that these changes really are quite useless.  Bitter rant, grab your popcorn.

Manual play needs to be learned early.  If there is a problem with them being overpowered, change the play.  Don't lock it up and make it just trash play.  Good way to get players not to play em.  It will frustrate potentially new skilled players as they NEVER land hits except against the odd really new player.

 

Want to fix planes?  Fix how they fly.  Onto the bitter portion of my rant.  No plane in history can maneuver as fast as you have these bomb strapped antiques do it.  I was TRYING to play today, in my donskoi.  I know plane evasions, and try doing what I can, but it was just trash play experience.  My ship cannot turn fast enough, planes can always perfect position no matter what I do.  Then the TAIHO thanks to its god mode vs essex means our essex had zero chance in gaining any control in the fight if it wasn't air superiority.  Result is twice engaging them, late game, air cover down, the skilled players were able to full kill me with stacked up torp drops and there was nothing I could do about it even with defensive AA.

This isn't a rework.  This is just spit and bandaid.  Want to fix carriers and plane combat?  Then get the planes behaving like planes.  Give the controls smooth and linear controls.  Give some sort of control to the players in a balance on both sides.  The squad locks are just dumb or am I missing something where historically japanese could launch more planes than their US counterparts?

Want to do rework that will actually make a bloody difference in the game and game experience?  Then try actually identifying what is wrong from the player perspectives on both sides.  Yeah, being low tier and beaten by torpedoes sucks, so application is important.  But if we arent to expect any big changes, then what is the point?  They NEED big changes.

mandatory popcorn required.

 

:popcorn:

 

I love gaming and yeah, I get bitter at times and with teams and matches like all players.  But i have enjoyed play.  I have enjoyed doing well with my play.  But for the first time, I found myself quitting and seriously not wanting to play at all.  Right now, I don't want to play and it probably will be a bit until I do again.

 

View PostBrushWolf, on 11 March 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

 

Auto attacks need to drop a little closer, not so close that manual isn't better but close enough that a target that isn't paying attention is going to get hammered. With the current drop distance for auto drops Mr Magoo can avoid the attack.

 

Autodrop needs to be removed.  Instead, make a natural and comfortable manual drop.  Or can I get auto attack with my main guns plz...


Edited by Vaporisor, 11 March 2017 - 11:05 PM.


BrushWolf #27 Posted 12 March 2017 - 12:32 AM

    Rear Admiral

  • Alpha Tester

  • 7,660
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012

View PostBrushWolf, on 11 March 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

 

Auto attacks need to drop a little closer, not so close that manual isn't better but close enough that a target that isn't paying attention is going to get hammered. With the current drop distance for auto drops Mr Magoo can avoid the attack.

 

View PostVaporisor, on 11 March 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

Autodrop needs to be removed.  Instead, make a natural and comfortable manual drop.  Or can I get auto attack with my main guns plz...

 

You are not trying to manage each of your turrets individually. CV play is more like a real time strategy game than the other classes. Taking away auto drops would make the class even more niche than it is but you are right that manual drop needs to be fixed.

  

 

Ich lasse mir doch nicht mein Schiff unter dem Arsch wegschießen. Feuererlaubnis! (I'm not letting my ship get shot out from under my arse. Open fire!) Ernst Lindemann Captain KMS Bismarck

 


Vaporisor #28 Posted 12 March 2017 - 02:57 AM

    Ensign

  • Members

  • 868
  • Member since:
    01-09-2013

View PostBrushWolf, on 12 March 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

 

 

You are not trying to manage each of your turrets individually. CV play is more like a real time strategy game than the other classes. Taking away auto drops would make the class even more niche than it is but you are right that manual drop needs to be fixed.

 

It does depend on how it is changed.  One thing that makes me like ships over tanks and planes is that even though all our turrets manage as one, they still feel connected to me as a player.  That feeling of "command" to put it in a poor way.  For us with guns, I enjoy reading the target, anticipating and maneuvering to position.  Is why I like cruisers so much.  A nice mix of evasion and precision.  Tanks is much more FPS feeling, and the reticule circle frustrating.  Planes I didn't enjoy because I like more simulator controls ^.^

On to topic, we also have torpedoes which still have the ghost shadow.  Rule of course is don't shoot at the predicted path, but everybody uses it.  While not to directly shoot at, it still gives us a rough point and combined with feel of how ships turn, we then can estimate where to change out aim.  The best place to start in revamping carrier play is to look at the diversity of the player base and find out how one can bring in the common denominators.  For me, evasion and prediction.

Then how can one also bring in your comment, playing it in real time without the auto but not making it niche.  I think first step to that is removing all together the whole fixed squadron and plane composition thing  The one common complaint I see is the whole IJN vs USN imbalances with the number of squadrons.  World of tanks has ammo to select.  I think:

 

  1. why not bring that over of sorts so that carrier players can select their plane compositions?
  2. Remove plane upgrade tiers?  Have them as variants you can research to keep the upgrading concept vs matches where you have grossly imbalanced planes?  Yes, some ships are far outclassed by up-hulled competition, but there is still enough that skill can offset potentially.
  3. Try to capture the spirit of artillery and torpedoes with planes.  But for the RTS side, it would be more like a skillshot.  So the reference to torpedoes, is it gives instead a projected path.  Imagine a ray from a ship of shorts with 5/10/15/20 second estimate lines.  A person moves their planes with the normal pathing, easy enough.  Click for new path, shift click for waypoint, and click drag to move or add midpoint waypoint.  At the end of the movement or during it, you add your "skillshot.  It works by a simple click and drag for direction for the start of a run, and the same for drop location.

 

The result is a player can get a better estimate over the long period of time, but they do need a run up before their drop.  Planes would have turn rates because... they do.  So more planning of the run would be like destroyers.  The tools will give it the comfort and lower nannying of auto dropping without the exceeding frustration of like what I talked where there is just frustration in dealing with planes.  Like ships, players will have to account for run up and angling, but they could even add the two attack types like torps have.  One where they line fire, or other for spread fire.  Line fire more powerful but easier to dodge.  Dive bombers could be more interesting as a chain of attacks instead of just a "poof" for interest sake.

That still needs balance though.  That starts with addressing silly mechanics that address silly mechanics.  Planes could be stealthier and sneakier, ambushers like a good destroyer to offset the rebalance of armor and deployment.  Since they are planes, this could be a bit fun too.  Give flight as two elevations, high and low.  Low altitude can use concealment same as ships can, but limits their ability to detect down to currently detectable range.  Planes at altitude detect for ship detection range (with line of sight) but can go over islands.  Detection could use some finesse, but is just a brainstorm idea.  It also can be reflected in AA and attacks.  High altitude longer runs, but lower succeptibility to AA.  Low altitude can hit sooner allowing attacks similar to current strikes, but more AA vulnerable.

Yeah, it is a large and abstract idea, but there is already combat systems that make use of this type of play.  The plane flight is essentially no different than splines in CAD or other art programs.  By a click and drag hotkey system, it would quickly become intuitive for the player.  Right now manual attacks are powerful but trickey to master and for my trials, a multi step process that has to be one at a time, there is no way to do what is required in smooth motions.  And like with the attack mentions, to really apply them, you need to change hotkeys and such around so those three small squadrons function as one big squadron.  Then they can bring the choices of IJN vs US more about the planes an ships than having to make some grossly different means of application.  Like ships, can be things like detectability, damage, torps, etc.  Give players some tools to config their loadout more to their play.  Put in some limits, costs or similar to prevent overpowered or meta game.

I am starting to ramble more.  But that is really all I was getting at with remove auto drops.  Make the manual play fun and engaging enough so that people won't want to use "auto"

One more bit.  The camera.  Remove the special mode camera for plane control.  Everything takes place from the surface of the water from aim to position, so the planes should just function from a visual side as well.  Camera controls, just make em the swap between free and locked camera like what happens in spectator mode after you sink.\

 

Edit:  Maybe there is a way to configure what you launch in addition to what you loadout.  So a few bigger squads or many small ones.  Choose how big you want each squadron?  So part of the IJN vs USD can be "command points" So you assign each hotkey in the loadout while in port for how many planes of which type per group....


Edited by Vaporisor, 12 March 2017 - 02:59 AM.





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users