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Grinding the IJN CVs


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Sinboto #1 Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:22 AM

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It's an enjoyable enough line, and I go back to it whenever I'm not grinding a line I want T10 in, like the RNCLs for my most recent T10. I like it well enough but I can see why it would be a hard one for the average joe to use effectively (I'm not even that great at it honestly) but when the stars line up and I get matches like this:

 

Spoiler

I can see why people stick with them despite the carrier classes' issues, hopefully WG redoes carrier balance at some point and more people can get into the class without having to know every nook and cranny to be decent at it. Who knows right? 

 

Also, screw strafing, I still hate that mechanic and think it's dumb. 


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Reyteitoku #2 Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

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View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

It's an enjoyable enough line, and I go back to it whenever I'm not grinding a line I want T10 in, like the RNCLs for my most recent T10. I like it well enough but I can see why it would be a hard one for the average joe to use effectively (I'm not even that great at it honestly) but when the stars line up and I get matches like this:

 

Spoiler

I can see why people stick with them despite the carrier classes' issues, hopefully WG redoes carrier balance at some point and more people can get into the class without having to know every nook and cranny to be decent at it. Who knows right? 

 

Also, screw strafing, I still hate that mechanic and think it's dumb. 

Strafing is really important....just leftclicking is kinda dumb if u cannot do anything elese with fighter

Aduial #3 Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:01 PM

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I find CVs to be enjoyable in some situations, and incredibly frustrating in others. 

 

And yeah, I hope the CV rework is coming soon as well. 


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Sinboto #4 Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:19 PM

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View PostReyteitoku, on 08 March 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Strafing is really important....just leftclicking is kinda dumb if u cannot do anything elese with fighter

 

Having seen mock dogfights during my time as a riflemen the thought of a fighter squadron flying in a straight line and emptying their guns without changing so much as their elevation to wipe out multiple squads of the enemy forces seems both hilarious and facepalm worthy.

 

I took out 20 planes in one go with it the other day, that's just funny, all four CVs in the match laughed at the sheer absurdity of it.     


Edited by Sinboto, 08 March 2017 - 01:24 PM.

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Reyteitoku #5 Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:33 PM

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View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

 

Having seen mock dogfights during my time as a riflemen the thought of a fighter squadron flying in a straight line and emptying their guns without changing so much as their elevation to wipe out multiple squads of the enemy forces seems both hilarious and facepalm worthy.

 

I took out 20 planes in one go with it the other day, that's just funny, all four CVs in the match laughed at the sheer absurdity of it.     

 

well this is arcade game -  it doesent need to be realistic. strafing is neccessariy to actually make fighter a little bit more like a "skillshot" the way ALT dropped torpedos are.

Edited by Reyteitoku, 08 March 2017 - 01:50 PM.


Sinboto #6 Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:45 PM

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View PostReyteitoku, on 08 March 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

 

well this is arcade game -  it doesent need to be realistic. strafing is neccessariy to actually to make fighter a little bit more like a "skillshot" the way ALT dropped torpedos are.

 

I'm guessing either your first language isn't english or you are just tired, I'll try to respond to what I think you're saying.

 

Yes it doesn't need to be realistic, but it does need to be balanced, in what reality is it 'Necessary' for me to be able to wipe out 75% of the planes in the air from two CVs in five seconds? All without losing a single one of my own planes, not a single one, and the only reason I didn't get the rest of them was because the other CV on my team had already wiped out the fighters.

 

Mind you I also had two more squads of fighters in reserve I could have used to do the same thing, be it via dogfighting or strafing.   

 

That's not skill, and I can't imagine the carriers on the other team thought it was very skillful either. 

 

I do not get the same feeling of accomplishment from that as I do from dodging an unexpected torpedo salvo in my battleship, or placing a perfect shot in a cruiser to kill a DD from 15km away. It's just:

 

Position, Click, Free kills without taking any damage.  


Edited by Sinboto, 08 March 2017 - 01:48 PM.

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Captain_Dorja #7 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

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I think you're right about the IJN Carriers being good despite all the problems, but not the most friendly for inexperienced players too. I've only got up to Lexington and Hiryu in carriers. USN carriers enrage me to the point where i want to find the guy responsible for saying, "Yeah, this setup for USN CVs seems like a good idea" and do something horrible to him - like poke him in the eye with a hot pepper. The IJN CVs are at least competitive, and don't have to choose between 3 different sets of gimping themselves in one way to hopefully be effective in another way. That said, I don't play CVs enough to really be good at the micro. There isn't really that much, but I'm just bad at micro. That's part of why I've just sort of stopped at Hiryu. As I advance I'll just become a worse and worse IJN CV captain. The other bit about them that is a bit unfriendly is the lower toughness of their aircraft. If you're not a good CV driver, once you get up to Hiryu it can be pretty easy to make a small mistake and lose almost an entire strike wing. She only has enough reserves for 3 full waves of strike craft.

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Reyteitoku #8 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:14 PM

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View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

 

I'm guessing either your first language isn't english or you are just tired, I'll try to respond to what I think you're saying.

 

No need to mock me, everyone can make mistakes.

 

View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

Yes it doesn't need to be realistic, but it does need to be balanced, in what reality is it 'Necessary' for me to be able to wipe out 75% of the planes in the air from two CVs in five seconds? All without losing a single one of my own planes, not a single one, and the only reason I didn't get the rest of them was because the other CV on my team had already wiped out the fighters.

 

Mind you I also had two more squads of fighters in reserve I could have used to do the same thing, be it via dogfighting or strafing.   

 

That's not skill, and I can't imagine the carriers on the other team thought it was very skillful either. 

 

If the enemy cv makes a mistake by lining up all his planes in one line, I ll wipe them. I take an opportunity which presents itself, thats what certain skillshorts are for. After all strafing can also be dodged fairly easly. Strafing itself is not a win-win strategy, since it consumes a good chunk of ammo.

 

 The last time I made a nice barrage and wiped some torpedobomber out of the sky the enemy cv congratulated me (I was exspecting a angry response).

 

View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

I do not get the same feeling of accomplishment from that as I do from dodging an unexpected torpedo salvo in my battleship, or placing a perfect shot in a cruiser to kill a DD from 15km away. It's just:

 

Position, Click, Free kills without taking any damage.  

 

Honestly I dont see much difference inbetween those situations or strafing. Sure its on first glance much more devastating to lose all the planes to strafe in cv players POV, but usually its not game over for him. CV do have replacements, and it takes more than one strafing to actually "clear the skies". If the enemy cv on the contrary isnt aware of you perform strafing than the mistake is on his side. Thats not much different from a bb or CA sailing around broadside to an enemy.

 

Even if we hypothetical remove strafing for all cv in the game, how would CV deal with stacked Squadrons? like the 3 Taiho Torpedobomber. Autoattacking is only ever going to panic one squadron and its up to RNG actually killing planes.


Edited by Reyteitoku, 08 March 2017 - 02:16 PM.


Aduial #9 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:21 PM

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View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

Position, Click, Free kills without taking any damage

 

Right, except no half-decent player will line up their planes for the taking like that. 

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Sinboto #10 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:37 PM

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View PostReyteitoku, on 08 March 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

 

No need to mock me, everyone can make mistakes.

 

 

If the enemy cv makes a mistake by lining up all his planes in one line, I ll wipe them. I take an opportunity which presents itself, thats what certain skillshorts are for. After all strafing can also be dodged fairly easly. Strafing itself is not a win-win strategy, since it consumes a good chunk of ammo.

 

 The last time I made a nice barrage and wiped some torpedobomber out of the sky the enemy cv congratulated me (I was exspecting a angry response).

 

 

Honestly I dont see much difference inbetween those situations or strafing. Sure its on first glance much more devastating to lose all the planes to strafe in cv players POV, but usually its not game over for him. CV do have replacements, and it takes more than one strafing to actually "clear the skies". If the enemy cv on the contrary isnt aware of you perform strafing than the mistake is on his side. Thats not much different from a bb or CA sailing around broadside to an enemy.

 

Even if we hypothetical remove strafing for all cv in the game, how would CV deal with stacked Squadrons? like the 3 Taiho Torpedobomber. Autoattacking is only ever going to panic one squadron and its up to RNG actually killing planes.

 

First of all I'm not mocking you, you'd know it if I was, supertesters aren't allowed to do that anyway. Your spelling is simply off in some places. 

 

As far as dodging goes, it's a moot point, fighters especially are quick to correct their positions and the radius for a strafe is quite large. It's not difficult for me to adjust or cancel a strafe I can see will miss. Perhaps the players I've been fighting are just not used to dodging them, but I have no way of judging that, and I doubt it since they've made it to T9 if I'm using my taiho.

 

And what of situations where players will strafe their own planes that are engaged with the other CVs fighters, where's the skill in that? (It's actually pretty annoying when it's a freindly CV and he kills your planes to be honest)

 

I'm guessing you also play high tier CV? There's a lot to keep track of as you are aware (I'm assuming here, I'm not going to bother looking up your stats) in the example you used about  someone sailing broadside that's far easier to keep track of and even if you misstep you can still dodge shots (especially in some cruisers) angle your armor at the last second or simply get lucky if the enemy's salvo overpens or misses due to rng. 

 

As for how to deal with stacked squads otherwise, you deal with them the same way you do without strafing, with your fighters. Making sure your cruisers know there are bombers incoming also works I find. 

 

If you're talking about 'what if' kinds of solutions we'll be here all day, they could add an alt that makes fighters come down from above bombers from the clouds, knocking out a few pilots in the dive (this is something done in real life and makes more sense both as a mechanic and otherwise as it's easier to balance and predict)  but if we start talking about stuff that could be we'll be here all day yes?


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cometguy #11 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:47 PM

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I understand the need for something like strafe being as powerful as it is. The standard attack is well balanced for a standard attack, but nowhere near sufficient for adequate fighter performance on such a compressed battlefield. Other than the UI occasionally giving no indication that a strafe is happening, I see no problem with it. Planes can change direction very quickly.

Sinboto #12 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:53 PM

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View Postcometguy, on 08 March 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

I understand the need for something like strafe being as powerful as it is. The standard attack is well balanced for a standard attack, but nowhere near sufficient for adequate fighter performance on such a compressed battlefield. Other than the UI occasionally giving no indication that a strafe is happening, I see no problem with it. Planes can change direction very quickly.

 

Meh I just always thought it was weird and should be replaced by something that makes more sense, like diving on the enemy bombers or something. It also turns into this weird looking dance as I try to figure out if the enemy CV is going to strafe my fighters with his or not and I assume he does the same thing. 

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cometguy #13 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:58 PM

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View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

 

Meh I just always thought it was weird and should be replaced by something that makes more sense, like diving on the enemy bombers or something. It also turns into this weird looking dance as I try to figure out if the enemy CV is going to strafe my fighters with his or not and I assume he does the same thing. 

Replacing it with something else is fine by me, so long as it still addresses the need to deal with planes quickly. Unless the CV UI overhaul is so great that it makes it to where the average player can handle more squadrons, and we can get a 1 to 1 fighter-bomber this going.



Sinboto #14 Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:05 PM

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View Postcometguy, on 08 March 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

Replacing it with something else is fine by me, so long as it still addresses the need to deal with planes quickly. Unless the CV UI overhaul is so great that it makes it to where the average player can handle more squadrons, and we can get a 1 to 1 fighter-bomber this going.

 

I don't know if you've ever played the homeworld or total war series but they have a grouping system that I think would work wonders with CVs ya know? Something like that would be useful I think. 

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Reyteitoku #15 Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:12 PM

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View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

First of all I'm not mocking you, you'd know it if I was, supertesters aren't allowed to do that anyway. Your spelling is simply off in some places. 

 

it sure felt like mocking, wherether it was mocking or not I can't tell. If you think about my spelling errors, you should choose your words with more care.....

 

View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

As far as dodging goes, it's a moot point, fighters especially are quick to correct their positions and the radius for a strafe is quite large. It's not difficult for me to adjust or cancel a strafe I can see will miss. Perhaps the players I've been fighting are just not used to dodging them, but I have no way of judging that, and I doubt it since they've made it to T9 if I'm using my taiho.

 

Maybe Players you met are indeed just not partiuclar good or had a bad day. If you miss out on strafe-attack just before th enemy cv hits a friendly ship there is no way for you to undo the damage. The UI does not allow instant movements with the planes, even the planes ve turningcircle. Sometimes the question of doing a strafe or not is a tough one.

View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

And what of situations where players will strafe their own planes that are engaged with the other CVs fighters, where's the skill in that? (It's actually pretty annoying when it's a freindly CV and he kills your planes to be honest)

 

I'm guessing you also play high tier CV? There's a lot to keep track of as you are aware (I'm assuming here, I'm not going to bother looking up your stats) in the example you used about  someone sailing broadside that's far easier to keep track of and even if you misstep you can still dodge shots (especially in some cruisers) angle your armor at the last second or simply get lucky if the enemy's salvo overpens or misses due to rng. 

 

obviously its annyoing to get the own planes killed by a friendly cv, but beyond t7 cv is always 1vs1. Also most cv player wouldnt do something which would involve teamkilling, even only fighter.

 

Counting for overpens is just luck, its difficult to track shells correct to actually tank with part of a ship which are more likely to generate an overpen. Keep in mind that good player can track a ships movement in advance, so even doing last minute evasives at range wont help - as much as good cv player strafing planes.

 

View PostSinboto, on 08 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

As for how to deal with stacked squads otherwise, you deal with them the same way you do without strafing, with your fighters. Making sure your cruisers know there are bombers incoming also works I find. 

 

If you're talking about 'what if' kinds of solutions we'll be here all day, they could add an alt that makes fighters come down from above bombers from the clouds, knocking out a few pilots in the dive (this is something done in real life and makes more sense both as a mechanic and otherwise as it's easier to balance and predict)  but if we start talking about stuff that could be we'll be here all day yes?

If a stack of planes approaches a ship at around 8km there isnt much time to react, autoattacking wont be enough. Also no cruiser which isnt already in range for AA can react in time to help the target.

 

While I personally like the suggestion you made (hinting at evalationchanges for planes) -  its something which is more difficult to learn for new player. Making cv even more difficult to play wont really make the cv more accessable for new player. Would you agree on this as Supertester?

 

 



Sinboto #16 Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:52 PM

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View PostReyteitoku, on 08 March 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

it sure felt like mocking, wherether it was mocking or not I can't tell. If you think about my spelling errors, you should choose your words with more care.....

 

Maybe Players you met are indeed just not partiuclar good or had a bad day. If you miss out on strafe-attack just before th enemy cv hits a friendly ship there is no way for you to undo the damage. The UI does not allow instant movements with the planes, even the planes ve turningcircle. Sometimes the question of doing a strafe or not is a tough one.

obviously its annyoing to get the own planes killed by a friendly cv, but beyond t7 cv is always 1vs1. Also most cv player wouldnt do something which would involve teamkilling, even only fighter.

 

Counting for overpens is just luck, its difficult to track shells correct to actually tank with part of a ship which are more likely to generate an overpen. Keep in mind that good player can track a ships movement in advance, so even doing last minute evasives at range wont help - as much as good cv player strafing planes.

 

If a stack of planes approaches a ship at around 8km there isnt much time to react, autoattacking wont be enough. Also no cruiser which isnt already in range for AA can react in time to help the target.

 

While I personally like the suggestion you made (hinting at evalationchanges for planes) -  its something which is more difficult to learn for new player. Making cv even more difficult to play wont really make the cv more accessable for new player. Would you agree on this as Supertester?

 

 

I'm not sure how changing the animation from a line to from above will make it harder, are you talking about aiming the alt? That may be harder as it would likely be a circle rather than a rectangle (live divebombers but bigger I guess) Not totally sure what you mean, sorry. 

 

Oh, and you'll definitely want to warn your cruisers of incoming planes before they reach 8km, I usually do this by using a squad to spot planes, and DDs while I'm at it too cause spotting their torps or killing them makes them less dangerous.


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aethervox #17 Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:55 PM

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I'm at the Hiryu atm and closing in on the Shokaku (research-wise). I don't mind the grind at all.

Ijn CVs at the higher tiers are a challenge to play because of all the plane squadrons one must manage plus one has to steer the CV itself, lol.

& I have an Essex too (which I also like).



StoneRhino #18 Posted 08 March 2017 - 09:51 PM

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Everyone knows that Straffing is not op...lol

Spoiler

ff


Edited by StoneRhino, 08 March 2017 - 09:52 PM.


Aduial #19 Posted 09 March 2017 - 09:06 AM

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View PostStoneRhino, on 08 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Everyone knows that Straffing is not op...lol

Spoiler

ff

 

More like "not stacking 24 of your planes in the same area is OP". 

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StoneRhino #20 Posted 09 March 2017 - 04:47 PM

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That's just a worse case scenario but anyone who knows half way how to strafe can throw up pics of swatting air groups from the sky.  Also that one just happened to be in my imgur from a discussion about strafing a while ago.  Still a bad mechanic.




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