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Any word on a new French premium cruiser?


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Battlecruiser_Yavuz #21 Posted 06 March 2017 - 06:49 PM

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View PostLittleWhiteMouse, on 06 March 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

Why would you make French-surrender jokes about the French Navy which had elements that continued to distinguish itself and fight against the Axis throughout the whole duration of the war even against the express wishes of the Vichy French government?

 

I think the French surrender jokes are a bit overplayed due to WW2.  It's kinda the same with the "Italians are crap at fighting" joke that's done as well due to the inept leadership of the Italian military during that era.

 

Those who know history should know that the French (Vichy and Free French) fought with great distinction during the war.  Heck!  The partisans also should be thrown into that list since they helped pave the way for the Allied invasion that ultimately defeated Germany.

 

 


 

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Battlecruiser_Yavuz #22 Posted 06 March 2017 - 06:52 PM

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View PostCrazyHorse_Denver, on 06 March 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

 

It is getting to be a very tired old joke. It's been passed on for several generations here in America. It basically stems from the fact that our parents and/or grandparents(for my generation ) had to shed American blood to haul their ashes out of the fire twice in 30 years.

 

Though you are right that the stereotype belongs to the army and not the navy. Having gotten the stuffing kicked out of it in WWI the French army just wasn't up for another fight so soon after. Even then it wasn't the individual French fighting man but the total lack of leadership at the top that did them in.

 

I recall that the French were somewhat prepared for another aggressive push by Germany during the interwar period.  However, technology and tactics marched on...so the French were forced to retreat at Dunkirk (probably the root of the "French retreating" joke).

 

That being said, the French being quite feminine / enemy of England is an English joke that has been historically told throughout generations.  Two of my favorite examples :P:

 

 


 

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Tzarevitch #23 Posted 06 March 2017 - 09:24 PM

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View PostBattlecruiser_Yavuz, on 06 March 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

 

I recall that the French were somewhat prepared for another aggressive push by Germany during the interwar period.  However, technology and tactics marched on...so the French were forced to retreat at Dunkirk (probably the root of the "French retreating" joke).

 

That being said, the French being quite feminine / enemy of England is an English joke that has been historically told throughout generations.  Two of my favorite examples :P:

 

 

 

​Just to point out. The French AND the British were defeated leading up to Dunkirk. They both badly underestimated the effectiveness of the Blitzkrieg. The difference is the Brits had an island to flee to and regroup. The French didn't.

Edited by Tzarevitch, 06 March 2017 - 09:25 PM.


Battlecruiser_Yavuz #24 Posted 06 March 2017 - 10:24 PM

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View PostTzarevitch, on 06 March 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

 

​Just to point out. The French AND the British were defeated leading up to Dunkirk. They both badly underestimated the effectiveness of the Blitzkrieg. The difference is the Brits had an island to flee to and regroup. The French didn't.

 

That's very true...but we don't make fun of the British retreating (unless you are an American :P).

 

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mofton #25 Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:55 AM

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View PostBattlecruiser_Yavuz, on 06 March 2017 - 02:24 PM, said:

That's very true...but we don't make fun of the British retreating

 

The BEF was about 1/10th the size of the French forces, so with a general failure it was never going to achieve much.

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Eisennagel #26 Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:18 AM

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View PostAdmiral_Dewey, on 07 March 2017 - 02:51 AM, said:

 

To take the point even further: If the French Navy under Comte de Grasse doesn't defeat the Royal Navy at the Battle of the Chesapeake in 1781, British General Cornwallis is not trapped and forced to surrender at Yorktown (which effectively ended the American Revolution).

 

 

 

Which reminds me that the cruiser De Grasse might be a contender for a premium, despite being finished post war.  She would be like a French Atlanta.

 

So much peu peu!!

 



Wolcott #27 Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:11 AM

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View Postpoeticmotion, on 07 March 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

 

 ​I wanted French DDs first. Speed demons from hell. But I'm a DD main so I'm biased. 

 

But it doesn't make sense to release a French premium BB months in advance only to release a cruiser line first. :amazed:

 

View PostBattlecruiser_Yavuz, on 07 March 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

 

I think the French surrender jokes are a bit overplayed due to WW2.  It's kinda the same with the "Italians are crap at fighting" joke that's done as well due to the inept leadership of the Italian military during that era.

 

Those who know history should know that the French (Vichy and Free French) fought with great distinction during the war.  Heck!  The partisans also should be thrown into that list since they helped pave the way for the Allied invasion that ultimately defeated Germany.

 

 

 

That's pretty much the reason why WoT has no interest in adding Italian tanks. Instead they add Swedish, Czechs and copy/paste Chinese. :facepalm:

 

I think the jokes are further aggravated by the fact that the French lost another major conflict, particularly the humiliating defeat at Dien Bien Phu. France will never be rid of this stigma.


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renegadestatuz #28 Posted 07 March 2017 - 11:51 AM

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No French premium cruiser, but we are about to get an Italian premium cruiser.

https://thearmoredpa...ing/#more-43885


 
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poeticmotion #29 Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:08 PM

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View PostWolcott, on 07 March 2017 - 05:11 AM, said:

But it doesn't make sense to release a French premium BB months in advance only to release a cruiser line first. :amazed:

 

Well, unless you actually look at Dunkerque and realize that a capt specced for cruisers will do fine in her since she's closer to a battlecruiser anyway....

 

Not to mention we're getting French BBs this year too. 


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mofton #30 Posted 07 March 2017 - 06:06 PM

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View Postpoeticmotion, on 07 March 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Well, unless you actually look at Dunkerque and realize that a capt specced for cruisers will do fine in her since she's closer to a battlecruiser anyway....

 

How do you spec yours?

 

I find with wanting to bow-on a lot plus a giant superstructure fire is a major threat, and no one wants a charred baguette. I take a lot of skills I wouldn't necessarily take on a cruiser - Fire Prevention, SI, BoS all not necessary on cruisers at least at lower tiers. I also don't bother with CE which is a cruiser must-have. I don't bother with AFT either as both secondaries and AA start at a bad point, with Def AA. cruisers may do better than the Dunk.


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Phoenix_jz #31 Posted 07 March 2017 - 06:15 PM

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Dunkerque's AA is poor, her DP guns, which have very good range, make up most of the punch... So I've actually been thinking about slapping MFCAA on the captain...

 

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poeticmotion #32 Posted 07 March 2017 - 06:26 PM

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View Postmofton, on 07 March 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

How do you spec yours?

I find with wanting to bow-on a lot plus a giant superstructure fire is a major threat, and no one wants a charred baguette. I take a lot of skills I wouldn't necessarily take on a cruiser - Fire Prevention, SI, BoS all not necessary on cruisers at least at lower tiers. I also don't bother with CE which is a cruiser must-have. I don't bother with AFT either as both secondaries and AA start at a bad point, with Def AA. cruisers may do better than the Dunk.

 

Full disclosure, I don't have one. But looking at the ship, it is workable. Ideal? No. But starting a new capt and training them on cruiser skills using the Dunk is not going to have a terrible effect on her even if it isn't the optimal build. Sort of like how I use my Graf Spee to train both DD and BB captains for Germany even if neither has the optimal build for a Graf Spee. 

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mofton #33 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:38 AM

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View Postpoeticmotion, on 07 March 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Full disclosure, I don't have one. But looking at the ship, it is workable. Ideal? No.

 

That's fair enough, it's not like Dunk's unplayable with a low point captain, just likely a lot more painful. Now I have a decent Dunk skipper I'm slightly loathe to start grinding up a preparatory cruiser skipper. I really do enjoy Dunk, and all the more for being set on fire a little less frequently...

 

It may be worth cracking on, especially as I'm not quite sure for instance if it's worth speccing for AA at all on these cruisers, or torpedo reload, or of La Gal + IFHE might be something rather spectacular. Maybe just build a bank of skill points and ensure you get to 10 and CE sooner rather than later...


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YehoshuaUzziel #34 Posted 08 March 2017 - 02:57 AM

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View PostLittleWhiteMouse, on 06 March 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

Why would you make French-surrender jokes about the French Navy which had elements that continued to distinguish itself and fight against the Axis throughout the whole duration of the war even against the express wishes of the Vichy French government?

 

Having been guilty of making such jokes in my ignorant past, I had to alter my opinions substantially when I took the time to educate myself on the topic.  If there is nothing else, two words: Bir Hakeim.

 

Going back to the Napoleonic Wars, the French Navy got a bad rap for always losing to the Brits... but what I find to be rather telling is how persistent they were even after a constant, almost nonstop string of defeats.  And few Anglophile historians have ever commented on how the French reforms in that era, in areas such as the organization of ships companies, were copied by the British after the end of the war.

 

At least at the very start of World War II, the Allied plan always intended to be the French Navy to be the counterbalance for the Italians.  The rapid end of the ground campaign meant that the Marine Nationale never got much of the opportunity to fight the war they'd been trained and equipped to fight.  Even even afterward, in battles like Ko Chang and Ist, the French fought well.



SparvieroVV #35 Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:41 PM

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View PostYehoshuaUzziel, on 07 March 2017 - 09:57 PM, said:

 

Having been guilty of making such jokes in my ignorant past, I had to alter my opinions substantially when I took the time to educate myself on the topic.  If there is nothing else, two words: Bir Hakeim.

 

Going back to the Napoleonic Wars, the French Navy got a bad rap for always losing to the Brits... but what I find to be rather telling is how persistent they were even after a constant, almost nonstop string of defeats.  And few Anglophile historians have ever commented on how the French reforms in that era, in areas such as the organization of ships companies, were copied by the British after the end of the war.

 

At least at the very start of World War II, the Allied plan always intended to be the French Navy to be the counterbalance for the Italians.  The rapid end of the ground campaign meant that the Marine Nationale never got much of the opportunity to fight the war they'd been trained and equipped to fight.  Even even afterward, in battles like Ko Chang and Ist, the French fought well.

 

Historically speaking the US attitude to the French would be completely foreign to an American pre-ww1. The French where much admired and I think a lot of the current feeling really comes from de Gaulle's efforts policies and efforts to find a place in the sun for a post war France. The French and Americans being just a little too much alike in many ways. What brothers don't constantly get pissed at each other like we do?

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere there is an entire second half to the Battle of France that is pretty much ignored because it's Dunkerque and Britain stands alone in the minds of many. If the British always won why is Normandy not still a department of England? :P



Lord_Magus #36 Posted 11 March 2017 - 10:31 PM

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View PostDoomStomper, on 06 March 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

As usual: :)

 

View PostDoomStomper, on 06 March 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Edgar Quinet please!

 

 

With the frequency I've been bringing this ship up, y'all probably think I have a smokestacks fetish by now...  Well, not only does she have a unique look, but a uniform main battery arrangement that was rare for pre-WW1 Armored Cruisers.  Along with SMS Blucher, she'd be one of the only ships of that type that could work with the current control scheme - without suffering from the same issues as Mikasa.

 

If WG offers Edgar Quinet as a premium:



Eisennagel #37 Posted 13 March 2017 - 07:09 AM

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There is a question if the Tier 6 La Galissonniere would get the US refits and modifications her sisters did because the actual ship didn't and didn't survive long enough.  Three of the class got scuttled including La Galissonniere herself.  As such she may only be outfitted right up to the latest French AP and HE shells, which is a decent 870 mps.

 

Other three class members, Georges Leygues, Gloire and Montcalm, rejoined the Allied side, and were refitted in the US with AA, radar and the main cannons modified to use 6" USN shells, namely those you see in the Cleveland, the 47kg HE shell and the 59 kg AP shell.  The cruisers shoot the HE shell at 900 mps, and the heavier AP shell at 840 mps, the latter is considerable since the Cleveland shoots the same shell only at 762 mps.  Meaning the ships shoot the USN shells without the fancy arcs.

 

As such, there is enough differentiation among the ships so that you can use La Galissonniere in her original French configurations as the tree ship, then the US refitted cruisers as the premiums on the same tier.  As for camouflage, Georges Leygues and Montcalm got USN style camouflages and colors, but the Gloire still retained her Zebra camouflage that's the inspiration to a similar premium camouflage used in the game.  It is for that reason why I think Gloire, which also has a name that is easier to remember, and easier to sound of, could and would be the Tier 6 French light cruiser premium.  Oh not to mention, the Gloire did test out to have a 9 rounds per minute RoF so you have a lore based reason to use that number.  So the La Galissonniere could be potentially shooting at 8 rounds a minute, but the Gloire can reach out up to 9 rounds a minute.

 

Emile Bertin would also rejoin the Allies and got refitted with USN ammunition.  Since the 47kg HE shell used on the Cleveland is the same HE shell on the Omaha, that also means the Emile Bertin would be firing the same shell as the Omaha does, with a slight loss in muzzle velocity, 900 mps on the Emile Bertin and 914 mps on the Omaha.  The difference is the Bertin could broadside with 8 guns instead of seven, while RoF is up to the developers but I am feeling they would use around 8 rpm as an average for light cruisers, and 8 rpm was the planned or theoritical RPM for these guns.  The Emile Bertin has a rather unusual layout for guns, as she only has three turrets, but eight guns --- achieved with two triple mounted turrets and a superfiring turret in the front with a dual mount.  Despite not being a premium I suspect she will get the USN shells even as a tree ship, though as the final modification on her tech tree upgrades.

 

 


Edited by Eisennagel, 13 March 2017 - 07:12 AM.


YehoshuaUzziel #38 Posted 18 March 2017 - 08:46 PM

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View PostEisennagel, on 13 March 2017 - 07:09 AM, said:

Emile Bertin would also rejoin the Allies and got refitted with USN ammunition.  Since the 47kg HE shell used on the Cleveland is the same HE shell on the Omaha, that also means the Emile Bertin would be firing the same shell as the Omaha does, with a slight loss in muzzle velocity, 900 mps on the Emile Bertin and 914 mps on the Omaha.  The difference is the Bertin could broadside with 8 guns instead of seven, while RoF is up to the developers but I am feeling they would use around 8 rpm as an average for light cruisers, and 8 rpm was the planned or theoritical RPM for these guns.  The Emile Bertin has a rather unusual layout for guns, as she only has three turrets, but eight guns --- achieved with two triple mounted turrets and a superfiring turret in the front with a dual mount.  Despite not being a premium I suspect she will get the USN shells even as a tree ship, though as the final modification on her tech tree upgrades.

 

I think the Emile Bertin lost her central gun on 'B' turret during a refit (possibly to offset the addition of radar and other topweight).  I have seen photos of her with all nine guns still installed.

Eisennagel #39 Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:16 AM

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Based on the datamine stats, Emile Bertin and the La Galissonniere tree ships didn't get the USN ammo, only the 1937 French one, which has a heavy shell of 57kg with 870 mps.  That's heavier than all the light cruiser shells but the USN AP one on the Cleveland but travels at a much higher muzzle velocity.

 

This opens the possibility we may either see Montcalm-Georges Leygues-Gloire vs. De Grasse for a premium light cruiser, though the other three ships will be in Tier 6 and De Grasse with her post war, 16 x 5"/54 guns (uses the same ammo as the USN 5"/54 and has similar ballistic characteristics) will be on Tier 7.

 

However, given that the Atlanta has been pulled out of sales, its not likely we may see a French Atlanta, as WG might be trying to move away from this cruiser type at the moment.

 

Pulling the USN ammo out of the tree and putting it into a La Galissonniere premium might be the idea to differentiate the premium from the tree ship.  Of the three cruisers, there are differences in the AA suite among them, but the most important is that the Gloire in particular, has a revised ammo supply system that pushes RoF to 9 rounds per minute, which can possibly further differentiate the ship from the tree ship.

 

La Galissonniere as current game stats

HE

55 kg, 870 mps, 8 rounds per minute

AP

57 kg, 870 mps, 8 rounds per minute

 

Gloire as proposed for the game based after her US refit

HE

47 kg, 900 mps, 9 rounds a minute

AP

59 kg, 840 mps, 9 rounds a minute

 

And then you have the camouflage issue, the Gloire gets her historic zebra stripe camo, while Montcalm and Georges Leygues got repainted with USN style colors and camo pattern.  Finally you also have a name that is just easier to remember and say, making it more marketable, as her name means "Glory".

 

 


Edited by Eisennagel, 19 March 2017 - 06:17 AM.


crzyhawk #40 Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:00 AM

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View Postmofton, on 07 March 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

 

That's fair enough, it's not like Dunk's unplayable with a low point captain, just likely a lot more painful. Now I have a decent Dunk skipper I'm slightly loathe to start grinding up a preparatory cruiser skipper. I really do enjoy Dunk, and all the more for being set on fire a little less frequently...

 

It may be worth cracking on, especially as I'm not quite sure for instance if it's worth speccing for AA at all on these cruisers, or torpedo reload, or of La Gal + IFHE might be something rather spectacular. Maybe just build a bank of skill points and ensure you get to 10 and CE sooner rather than later...

 

It's actually not too bad.  I put my usual captain in reserve and started training up a new French captain for the upcoming cruisers.





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