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Are Belfast's guns better than Cleveland's?

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MrDeaf #1 Posted 24 February 2017 - 09:00 AM

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This was a bit of a question I had, so I took to the training rooms to figure it out.

Of the middle tier cruisers, the most hated are possibly the "Bel***" and "Cheatland", however the primary players saying these things are DDs for Belfast and BBs for Cleveland.

 

Hypothesis

Belfast feels like it has excellent guns for just everything, where as Cleveland feels like they are primarily meant to torch BBs. Is this true?

 

Testing

Off I went to training room.

I tested these numbers. 15.4km, max range of Belfast. 14.6km, max range of Cleveland. 13.3km, Irishfire™ range of Belfast. 10.0km, a nice round number. 9.0km, a smidgen over Belfast's minimum detection range. 8.5km, a tad bit over Belfast's radar range. 7.0km, intermediate number. 4.2km, Belfast's Hydro range.

I tested both HE and AP, as they don't necessarily have the same flight time.

 

Gunnery Results

  Cleveland HE Cleveland AP Belfast (HE and AP)
15.4km n/a n/a 12.48s
14.6km 12.63s 11.60s 11.39s
13.3km 10.88s 10.07s 9.92s
10.0km 7.08s 6.87s 6.54s
9.0km 6.11s 5.93s 5.71s
8.5km 5.64s 5.53s 5.34s
7.0km 4.43s 4.38s 4.14s
4.2km 2.25s 2.35s 2.12s
       

 

These results clearly indicated Belfast having better shell flight time at all ranges.

Winner: Belfast

 

Turret and Gun performance

What about the other aspects of the guns?

  Cleveland Belfast
Reload time 8.0s 7.5s
180d turn time (w/EM) 29.0s 23.4s
Maximum Dispersion 124m 139m
HE shell damage 2200dmg 2100dmg
Fire chance 12% 9%
AP shell damage 3200dmg 3100dmg
     
tHE DPM 198,000dmg/min 201,600dmg/min
tAP DPM 288,000dmg/min 297,600dmg/min

 

The results do not paint a clear winner.

Better fire starter: Cleveland

Better DPM: Belfast, but only by a small margin

Better turret handling: Belfast

 

Other considerations

There is one more aspect which I didn't do, and that is AP penetration performance. Luckily, someone else has already done that.

Which are here: http://forum.worldof...23#entry1234723

and here: http://forum.worldof...38#entry1427638

In short, Cleveland AP is a clear winner.

 

Conclusion

Yes, the player base opinions are supported by facts.

Belfast guns have a lower skill floor, allowing players an easier time aiming at all sorts of targets. Belfast HE spam will annoy all captains on the receiving end equally.

Cleveland, on the other hand, has guns with a higher skill floor, making aiming more difficult, but with greater fire chance. This is more likely to annoy battleship captains to no end and can result in higher total DPM than Belfast with the amount of fires it can start.


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Destroyer_Teruzuki #2 Posted 24 February 2017 - 09:14 AM

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Cleveland also gets those steep arcs at much shorter ranges, which makes firing over islands a breeze in the ship (moreso than Belfast).

 

I long for my historical minimum reload Cleveland clocking in at 10rpm. Fortunately AR can bring me pretty close. :playing:


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Destroyer_HatsuzukiKai #3 Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:32 AM

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Doesnt the cleveland's shell arcs makes a huge difference? Shells comming from above considering they were well-aimed, hits less on the side armor and more on the superstructure unlike laser-guns.

That's just what I feel when playing with these high-arc shell guns.



MrDeaf #4 Posted 24 February 2017 - 10:53 AM

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View PostDestroyer_HatsuzukiKai, on 24 February 2017 - 05:32 AM, said:

Doesnt the cleveland's shell arcs makes a huge difference? Shells comming from above considering they were well-aimed, hits less on the side armor and more on the superstructure unlike laser-guns.

That's just what I feel when playing with these high-arc shell guns.

 

I don't think it really matters if you run IFHE on both.

33mm of penetration will penetrate just about everything.


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TabbyHopkins #5 Posted 24 February 2017 - 11:28 AM

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And yet with equal skilled captains, Belfast should win almost every time. She does, after all, have a better set of consumables.

 

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CapnCappy #6 Posted 24 February 2017 - 12:55 PM

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View PostTabbyHopkins, on 24 February 2017 - 05:28 AM, said:

And yet with equal skilled captains, Belfast should win almost every time. She does, after all, have a better set of consumables.

 

And this. There's a reason everyone groans in ranked when one side has a Belfast and the other side only gets a Fiji (or worse Myoko/Pepsi/Yorck).


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ForgMaxtor #7 Posted 24 February 2017 - 06:58 PM

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View PostTabbyHopkins, on 24 February 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

And yet with equal skilled captains, Belfast should win almost every time. She does, after all, have a better set of consumables.

 

Not disputing that Belfast is an OP PTW boat.  But it should be no surprise that assuming similar player skill level, a T7 CL has an advantage over a T6 CL.

Phoenix_jz #8 Posted 24 February 2017 - 07:28 PM

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View PostMrDeaf, on 24 February 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

 

I don't think it really matters if you run IFHE on both.

33mm of penetration will penetrate just about everything.

 

However, IFHE hurt's Belfast's ability to start fires far more than it does Cleveland's, so there is that to keep in mind.


 

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MrDeaf #9 Posted 24 February 2017 - 08:29 PM

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View PostPhoenix_jz, on 24 February 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

 

However, IFHE hurt's Belfast's ability to start fires far more than it does Cleveland's, so there is that to keep in mind.

 

They are both equally affected by IFHE. -3%, +2%, +0.5%, +0.5% = 0% gain/loss

 

View PostTabbyHopkins, on 24 February 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

And yet with equal skilled captains, Belfast should win almost every time. She does, after all, have a better set of consumables.

 

My numbers confirm that, don't they?

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YamatoA150 #10 Posted 24 February 2017 - 09:46 PM

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Another thing to take into consideration is that Cleveland is in a heavily nerfed state, and is really a T8 CL stuffed into a T6 role.

 

Her traverse was nerfed (her upgraded guns were further nerfed; in a reverse situation of Mogami and her 155).

Her RoF was nerfed (she should be spamming like DM).

Her AA was nerfed (missing mounts and other AA balancing).

Her handling was nerfed.

 

The fact she's able to keep up with Belfast a Tier higher, and a Premium to boot, shows that Cleveland is still pretty potent.


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Exciton8964 #11 Posted 24 February 2017 - 09:54 PM

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View PostYamatoA150, on 24 February 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

Another thing to take into consideration is that Cleveland is in a heavily nerfed state, and is really a T8 CL stuffed into a T6 role.

 

Her traverse was nerfed (her upgraded guns were further nerfed; in a reverse situation of Mogami and her 155).

Her RoF was nerfed (she should be spamming like DM).

Her AA was nerfed (missing mounts and other AA balancing).

Her handling was nerfed.

 

The fact she's able to keep up with Belfast a Tier higher, and a Premium to boot, shows that Cleveland is still pretty potent.

 

Not trying to say Cleveland is bad.

But it can't keep up with Belfast. Gunnery is not Belfast's strongest point. It is her concealment + smoke + radar. Cleveland has none of these.



GearaDoga #12 Posted 24 February 2017 - 11:27 PM

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View PostPhoenix_jz, on 24 February 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

 

However, IFHE hurt's Belfast's ability to start fires far more than it does Cleveland's, so there is that to keep in mind.

 

Doesn't matter so much when the angry smokescreen is ripping you apart with pure HE damage alone and there isn't a damned thing you can do to counter it...



Phoenix_jz #13 Posted 25 February 2017 - 01:29 PM

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View PostMrDeaf, on 24 February 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

 

They are both equally affected by IFHE. -3%, +2%, +0.5%, +0.5% = 0% gain/loss

 

But Cleveland has the higher based fire-chance by 3%.

A Cleveland could get IFHE, and then Invest in other skills and flags, and still have the same fire chance as an IFHE Belfast with DE and all the flags.


 

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crzyhawk #14 Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:05 AM

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View PostYamatoA150, on 24 February 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Another thing to take into consideration is that Cleveland is in a heavily nerfed state, and is really a T8 CL stuffed into a T6 role.

 

Her traverse was nerfed (her upgraded guns were further nerfed; in a reverse situation of Mogami and her 155).

Her RoF was nerfed (she should be spamming like DM).

Her AA was nerfed (missing mounts and other AA balancing).

Her handling was nerfed.

 

The fact she's able to keep up with Belfast a Tier higher, and a Premium to boot, shows that Cleveland is still pretty potent.

 

Her armor's been nerfed too.  There's not much about poor Cleveland that hasn't been nerfed.


YamatoA150 #15 Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:16 AM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 26 February 2017 - 10:05 PM, said:

Her armor's been nerfed too.  There's not much about poor Cleveland that hasn't been nerfed.

 

Was it?  I recall they fixed her missing citadel (she used to have a split-citadel that made her even better than she is now), or is it the part where the citadel is somewhat high?

 

Or is it just missing armor like Atlanta?


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crzyhawk #16 Posted 27 February 2017 - 04:50 AM

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I was mistaken.  I got some numbers mixed up.  I had thought the bow armor was at one time thicker, when I look at the numbers in the armor viewer now, they seem correct.  Cleveland and Aoba both have 16mm of bow armor, which is the same as T7 cruisers.  Most of the other t6 cruisers only have 13mm of bow armor.  The fact that Cleve and Aoba are the same threw me off because I seemed to remember Cleveland having more than all the other t6 cruisers.

 

Some of the armor values really bug the crap out of me.  For example, t7 DD's such as the Sims have 16mm of bow armor  T7 cruisers follow this paradigm, EXCEPT Belfast and Atlanta (both 13mm).  It seems ludicrous to me that destroyers of he same tier have thicker armor than cruisers, regardless of how light they may be.


Edited by crzyhawk, 27 February 2017 - 04:56 AM.


MrDeaf #17 Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:00 AM

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View PostPhoenix_jz, on 25 February 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

 

But Cleveland has the higher based fire-chance by 3%.

A Cleveland could get IFHE, and then Invest in other skills and flags, and still have the same fire chance as an IFHE Belfast with DE and all the flags.

 

Yeah, so, like I concluded, Cleveland is better at fire spamming battleships, while Belfast is better against all targets.

 


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crzyhawk #18 Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:01 AM

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Cleveland has superior AP bounce angles and shorter fuses too.


MrDeaf #19 Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:06 AM

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View Postcrzyhawk, on 27 February 2017 - 12:01 AM, said:

Cleveland has superior AP bounce angles and shorter fuses too.

 

Belfast AP is disappointing, yes.

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DerKrampus #20 Posted 01 March 2017 - 11:06 AM

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I'm inclined to agree with this assessment.  The Belfast is a better dd swatter due to its consumables and arcs.  However, I tend not to do as well in her, for a couple reasons.

 

First is those flat arcs.  Smoke is well and good, but it's concealment, not cover.  I can fire into smoke and delete a Belfast, with either guns or torpedoes.  A Cleveland lobbing over cover is relatively safe from both.  

 

Smoke can also be a trap.  It's easy to get pinned in your smoke, and surrounded by the enemy team.  In the Cleveland, I tend to play a far more mobile game, and I find myself out of position less often as a result.  

 

I can say that my damage numbers in Cleveland are consistently higher.  Part of this may be due to having a better captain, and partly due to Cleveland being my most played ship by a wide margin.  iFHE really "makes Cleveland great again," and since picking it back up, 60-90k games have become the norm.

 

Being able to arc shots over cover allows Cleveland to harass battleships far more safely than belfast, and let's face it; a DD caught out by either ship is going to end up equally mauled.  In the end, it comes down to playstyle and preference.  Considering the tier difference, that's rather impressive. 

 

 


 





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