Jump to content


So, Graf Spee

Graf Spee

  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

Carrier_Lexington #1 Posted 15 January 2017 - 03:44 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 680
  • Member since:
    12-25-2014

Okay, so I really like this ship. I may not be the most unicum unicum that ever unicumed in her (far from it, in fact) but I really enjoy her. It is new, it is fun, and it is different.

And I know that other players, Lert, Zoup, and Whitemouse, have already posted huge, all-inlcusive reviews on Graf Spee, but I decided that I wanted to have a try at this whole "ship review" thing, so, without further ado... Graf Spee!

 

   So, let's start with a simple pros/cons list:

   Pros:

  • Big guns. Very big guns with very high alpha damage.
  • Much lower dispersion than Scharnhorst yard-for-yard. I suspect that this is to compensate for only having two turrets.
  • Good gun-handling on those guns. They traverse quickly, much quicker than I expected.
  • The guns don't have a terribly-long reload. It's still longer than your typical cruiser, but I think that it's comparable with [EDIT: Sorry, had another look, and I was wrong. This is why I don't tend to post stats, because I cannot remember numbers] Atago.
  • The damage output is dependent upon accuracy, not RoF, so good shots will be rewarded 
  • Even when the second turret isn't fully traversed, you can still reliably put out high damage with one turret. Useful if you find yourself being chased by a faster ship, and, believe me, a lot of things are faster than you.
  • Fields German AP, which deals boosted damage. Fun!
  • Damage repair party.
  • Massive hit pool.
  • Very agile, good for dodging incoming salvos.
  • Initial muzzle velocity seems higher, or maybe the shell trajectory is just lower, than Scharnhorst, which makes it easier to lead cruisers and fast ships at closer ranges.
  • Good Torpedo Damage Reduction.

 

    Cons:

  • Although the ship has good armor against cruiser guns, the same cannot be said for guns of battleship caliber. You cannot hope to trade fire and reliably bounce BB shells. You can only dodge them with your good agility.
  • Dispersion still feels a little trollish at max range.
  • Not very good TDS from a flooding-prevention standpoint. However, if you are close-enough to be taking torpedo fire, you're probably too-close anyway.
  • AA suite is okay, but not exceptional (which is, in my opinion, a good thing)
  • Hydroacoustic Search is situational on Graf Spee, since you want to play from longer ranges, but, due to the general lack of CV players, so is Defensive Fire.
  • Slow base speed.
  • HE is lackluster.
  • Wide torpedo spread is very wide.
  • Succumbs easily to the HE spam.

 

   Some people might ask, "What ship is it most like?" The answer, is, of course, Graf Spee. It is currently the only British-Style Battlecruiser (known for having cruiser armor, cruiser speed/agility [in this case, agility], and battleship guns; as opposed to the German school of Battlecruisers which yielded ships like Scharnhorst, with battleship armor, battleship speed, and cruiser guns) [ironic, since it was developed by the Germans].

 

You can't play it like anything else, because, currently, with the RN line only consisting of premiums and light cruisers, there is nothing with a similar playstyle.

 

It's not like an American cruiser, because it is slower, has much bigger guns, and fires AP instead of HE primarily. It's not like IJN battleships because it doesn't have the range or the number of turrets, and is more agile. It's not like a KMS cruiser, because it's armor, while not great against battleships, isn't completely paper, and it only has two turrets. It's not like an RN cruiser, because it doesn't field the RoF but has much higher alpha damage. It's not like a KMS or USN battleship because it doesn't have the lavish amounts of armor.

 

I think that the closest thing to it is the Colorado, with the exception of the Colorado's citadel armor and AA defense. Don't get too close, or you will get melted by HE spam. Don't sail too predictably, or people will pour AP into your weakspots (for Graf Spee, the entire hull). You have big guns with big alpha damage, use them. Pretend you don't have torpedoes (which is easy with Colorado, for obvious reasons). Nuke cruisers.

 

So, general tips:

  • If a fast target, like a cruiser, is within 8 or 9 km of you, aim to the 5 dash (if you have that kind of reticle) instead of the 10 dash most of the time.
  • Pretend you don't have torpedoes except in last-ditch cases or ambushes.
  • DON'T BRAWL! YOU CANNOT BRAWL!
  • Fire AP primarily. Full penetrations deal upwards of 2k damage, and citadels deal 8k. Meanwhile, the HE is, as I've said before, lackluster.
  • Keep your distance.
  • Two turrets means that you have to be an accurate shot, so practice.
  • Don't try to contest the caps in the early or even mid-game, unless victory depends on it.

 

 

Okay, so, with that in mind, I hope that you all enjoy Graf Spee! SEA you in battle [uuuurgh!]


Edited by Carrier_Lexington, 22 January 2017 - 06:40 AM.

"Heresy!"


FlashTX1 #2 Posted 15 January 2017 - 04:00 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Beta Testers

  • 416
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012
:popcorn:

Former US Navy, (11 yrs) Nuclear MM1(ELT) (SW), Emerald Shellback (Crossing the Equator at 0 Longitude, 0 Latitude), Magellan (Sailing a ship around the world), Golden Dragon (Crossing the International Date LIne), Order of the Rock (Transiting the Straits of Gibraltar), served 1 yr. on USS Boulder LST-1190 and  5 yrs. on USS TEXAS CGN-39. 

 


pyantoryng #3 Posted 15 January 2017 - 04:16 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Alpha Tester

  • 1,816
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012

The Spee's 20 seconds reload is more in line with Atago/Takao which has 15-16 sec.

 

The Steinbutt torpedoes goes 2km farther than typical German G7a cruiser torpedoes and has the broadside-wide arc like other German cruisers.



Colonel_ace #4 Posted 15 January 2017 - 04:35 PM

    Master Chief Petty Officer

  • Beta Testers

  • 264
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012
It's a good ship to use in a division with ships that have different attributes or use alone in a situation you have control of. 

Carrier_Lexington #5 Posted 15 January 2017 - 05:48 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 680
  • Member since:
    12-25-2014

View PostColonel_ace, on 15 January 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

It's a good ship to use in a division with ships that have different attributes or use alone in a situation you have control of. 

 

Certainly. Having a division of entirely Graf Spee's is not only redundant, but situational at best.

 

Optimal Division might be something like:

  1. Graf Spee (for fighting cruisers and battleships)
  2. Cleveland (for fighting battleships and destroyers, giving AA coverage, and laying down suppressing amounts of HE fire)
  3. New Mexico/Bayern (to tank shots and attract fire) or Farragut (to spot targets and hunt DDs)

Edited by Raze_3, 15 January 2017 - 05:49 PM.

"Heresy!"


Cragger #6 Posted 15 January 2017 - 09:10 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Alpha Tester

  • 1,748
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012

Wait what? In your comparison you use Graf Spee and Scharnhorst yet call one battleship guns and one cruiser guns.... they both where armed with 28cm guns.

 

Scharnhorst was a battleship, not a battlecruiser. A fast battleship yes but well protected against her own guns and even higher.

 

Deutschland class are heavy cruisers pushed to the absolute limit and slipping beyond what the treaty limits allowed for. They are unique and there really is no comparison except to the old armored cruisers in terms of armament and funny thing that's what the germans classified them Panzerschiffe means "armored ship".



Nanostrike #7 Posted 15 January 2017 - 09:48 PM

    Chief Petty Officer

  • Members

  • 164
  • Member since:
    10-24-2016
The dispersion kills me in this ship, to the point where she causes more frustration than she's worth.

Even with the Aiming Module, it's more common than not for me to perfectly aim a citadel shot on a broadside cruiser...  Only to have two shells shoot far over it and one shell fall short.

The vertical dispersion is an utter joke for a T6 ship, even one with German BB guns.

Tzarevitch #8 Posted 15 January 2017 - 11:53 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 433
  • Member since:
    05-26-2015

View PostRaze_3, on 15 January 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Okay, so I really like this ship. I may not be the most unicum unicum that ever unicumed in her (far from it, in fact) but I really enjoy her. It is new, it is fun, and it is different.

And I know that other players, Lert, Zoup, and Whitemouse, have already posted huge, all-inlcusive reviews on Graf Spee, but I decided that I wanted to have a try at this whole "ship review" thing, so, without further ado... Graf Spee!

 

   So, let's start with a simple pros/cons list:

   Pros:

  • Big guns. Very big guns with very high alpha damage.
  • Much lower dispersion than Scharnhorst yard-for-yard. I suspect that this is to compensate for only having two turrets.
  • Good gun-handling on those guns. They traverse quickly, much quicker than I expected.
  • The guns don't have a terribly-long reload. It's still longer than your typical cruiser, but I think that it's comparable with [EDIT: Sorry, had another look, and I was wrong. This is why I don't tend to post stats, because I cannot remember numbers] Atago.
  • The damage output is dependent upon accuracy, not RoF, so good shots will be rewarded 
  • Even when the second turret isn't fully traversed, you can still reliably put out high damage with one turret. Useful if you find yourself being chased by a faster ship, and, believe me, a lot of things are faster than you.
  • Fields German AP, which deals boosted damage. Fun!
  • Damage repair party.
  • Massive hit pool.
  • Very agile, good for dodging incoming salvos.
  • Initial muzzle velocity seems higher, or maybe the shell trajectory is just lower, than Scharnhorst, which makes it easier to lead cruisers and fast ships at closer ranges.

 

    Cons:

  • Although the ship has good armor against cruiser guns, the same cannot be said for guns of battleship caliber. You cannot hope to trade fire and reliably bounce BB shells. You can only dodge them with your good agility.
  • Dispersion still feels a little trollish at max range.
  • Not very good TDS. However, if you are close-enough to be taking torpedo fire, you're probably too-close anyway.
  • AA suite is okay, but not exceptional (which is, in my opinion, a good thing)
  • Hydroacoustic Search is situational on Graf Spee, since you want to play from longer ranges, but, due to the general lack of CV players, so is Defensive Fire.
  • Slow base speed.
  • HE is lackluster.
  • Wide torpedo spread is very wide.
  • Succumbs easily to the HE spam.

 

   Some people might ask, "What ship is it most like?" The answer, is, of course, Graf Spee. It is currently the only British-Style Battlecruiser (known for having cruiser armor, cruiser speed/agility [in this case, agility], and battleship guns; as opposed to the German school of Battlecruisers which yielded ships like Scharnhorst, with battleship armor, battleship speed, and cruiser guns) [ironic, since it was developed by the Germans].

 

You can't play it like anything else, because, currently, with the RN line only consisting of premiums and light cruisers, there is nothing with a similar playstyle.

 

It's not like an American cruiser, because it is slower, has much bigger guns, and fires AP instead of HE primarily. It's not like IJN battleships because it doesn't have the range or the number of turrets, and is more agile. It's not like a KMS cruiser, because it's armor, while not great against battleships, isn't completely paper, and it only has two turrets. It's not like an RN cruiser, because it doesn't field the RoF but has much higher alpha damage. It's not like a KMS or USN battleship because it doesn't have the lavish amounts of armor.

 

I think that the closest thing to it is the Colorado, with the exception of the Colorado's citadel armor and AA defense. Don't get too close, or you will get melted by HE spam. Don't sail too predictably, or people will pour AP into your weakspots (for Graf Spee, the entire hull). You have big guns with big alpha damage, use them. Pretend you don't have torpedoes (which is easy with Colorado, for obvious reasons). Nuke cruisers.

 

So, general tips:

  • If a fast target, like a cruiser, is within 8 or 9 km of you, aim to the 5 dash (if you have that kind of reticle) instead of the 10 dash most of the time.
  • Pretend you don't have torpedoes except in last-ditch cases or ambushes.
  • DON'T BRAWL! YOU CANNOT BRAWL!
  • Fire AP primarily. Full penetrations deal upwards of 2k damage, and citadels deal 8k. Meanwhile, the HE is, as I've said before, lackluster.
  • Keep your distance.
  • Two turrets means that you have to be an accurate shot, so practice.
  • Don't try to contest the caps in the early or even mid-game, unless victory depends on it.

 

 

Okay, so, with that in mind, I hope that you all enjoy Graf Spee! SEA you in battle [uuuurgh!]

 

​I disagree on a couple of points. It CAN brawl and it is pretty good at it if you are sure you can close the range. It has decent cruiser armor, a ton of hp and a heal. (Remember it is a slow cruiser and is actually slower than some BBs you will meet.) The one caveat (the same for all cruisers) is that it cannot show its broadside to a BB. It can brawl cruisers with little problem. If you  brawl with a BB you MUST stay bow-on or sharply angled and get to torp and secondary range (and do not show your broadside). If you don't think you can get there, or you think you will have to turn out and show broadside for any reason do not brawl. Most BBs around her tier do not have the dispersion to get more than one hit on your narrow bow if you charge them at close ranges unless they get lucky (and if they do, you will probably die.) I know it is possible, but I have yet to see a BB manage more than one solid hit through the bow t and I've had Spee and played her daily since she was available. The way BBs can  counter this is to turn away and slow the closing rate long enough for their guns to kill you, but most won't run from a cruiser. They'll usually either sit broadside and hold their fire waiting for you to turn out, or turn towards you.

 

Also, I disagree about fighting at long range with Spee. The dispersion is absolutely TERRIBLE by cruiser standards. It spreads both over/under and left to right by a lot. You can easily straddle a BB at long ranges for zero hits even if your aim point is dead on. It is far and away the worst part of the ship. Long range fire is dicey. You really want to be in medium to short ranges otherwise you will be looking at 1 hit per salvo unless you get lucky (or unlucky).  



TenguBlade #9 Posted 16 January 2017 - 12:01 AM

    Vice Admiral

  • Members

  • 8,608
  • Member since:
    06-21-2015

View PostTzarevitch, on 15 January 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Also, I disagree about fighting at long range with Spee. The dispersion is absolutely TERRIBLE by cruiser standards. It spreads both over/under and left to right by a lot. You can easily straddle a BB at long ranges for zero hits even if your aim point is dead on. It is far and away the worst part of the ship. Long range fire is dicey. You really want to be in medium to short ranges otherwise you will be looking at 1 hit per salvo unless you get lucky (or unlucky).  

Consider, though, that 1 hit from the Spee's guns is easily equatable to 2 hits from a 6" gunned-CA.  And the dispersion is still really good for battleship-caliber weapons.  Not to mention it citadels broadside Japanese battleships at 7km and under.


Edited by TenguBlade, 16 January 2017 - 12:01 AM.

Don't know if you have a dark sense of humor?  If you laugh at this, you do.

IJN: Yamato, Amagi, Ibuki, Mogami, Shokaku, Hiryu, Akatsuki, Hatsuharu/Shiratsuyu, Kamikaze R, Katori, MikasaKongō, Myōkō, Kirishima, Haruna, Hiei, Ashigara, Nachi, Haguro, TakaoSouthern Dragon

USN: Montana, Iowa, New Mexico, New Orleans, Pensacola, Cleveland, Langley, Farragut

European Navies: Gnevny, Shchors, Nürnberg, Bayern, Fiji, Blyskawica (Gift from Compassghost), Scharnhorst (First and only bought), Admiral Graf Spee


Carrier_Lexington #10 Posted 16 January 2017 - 01:04 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 680
  • Member since:
    12-25-2014

View PostCragger, on 15 January 2017 - 04:10 PM, said:

Wait what? In your comparison you use Graf Spee and Scharnhorst yet call one battleship guns and one cruiser guns.... they both where armed with 28cm guns.

 

Scharnhorst was a battleship, not a battlecruiser. A fast battleship yes but well protected against her own guns and even higher.

I did say ships "like Scharnhorst." Historically, German Battlecruisers have always featured ships armed with cruiser guns, but battleship armor and cruiser speed (sorry, typo in the OP, I'll fix it). Although Scharnhorst is categorized as a Battleship, she behaves more like a German Battlecruiser, and is often considered to be a battlecruiser.

"Scharnhorst was a German capital ship, alternatively described as a battleship and battlecruiser, of Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine."-- Wikipedia

"The British did not refer to the Scharnhorsts as battlecruisers because of their weak main armament. They referred to them as battlecruisers because of their speed. This is the same reason why they referred to their own modern KGV, Lion, and Vanguard classes as battlecruisers."-- Axis History Forum

"Officially Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were 'light battleships' but that is a unique class difficult to compare to other navies." Axis History Forum

 

The reason she is classed as a "light battleship" is that she was supposed to receive 380mm guns (which the Gneisenau can fit in-game), but was sunk before she could ever have them fitted. Also, her armor was definitely better than any comparable battlecruiser of her period, so it's tricky to compare to other cruisers. Also, due to the (in)famous Treaty of Versailles, Germany couldn't build any cruiser of greater than a certain tonnage (of course, Germany didn't give two sh*ts about the treaty, but officials had to be appeased).

 

Anyway, in the same respects, Kongo was actually a battlecruiser, just with much heavier armor and bigger guns.


"Heresy!"


Carrier_Lexington #11 Posted 16 January 2017 - 01:25 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 680
  • Member since:
    12-25-2014

View PostTzarevitch, on 15 January 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

 

​I disagree on a couple of points. It CAN brawl and it is pretty good at it if you are sure you can close the range. It has decent cruiser armor, a ton of hp and a heal. (Remember it is a slow cruiser and is actually slower than some BBs you will meet.) The one caveat (the same for all cruisers) is that it cannot show its broadside to a BB. It can brawl cruisers with little problem. If you  brawl with a BB you MUST stay bow-on or sharply angled and get to torp and secondary range (and do not show your broadside). If you don't think you can get there, or you think you will have to turn out and show broadside for any reason do not brawl. Most BBs around her tier do not have the dispersion to get more than one hit on your narrow bow if you charge them at close ranges unless they get lucky (and if they do, you will probably die.) I know it is possible, but I have yet to see a BB manage more than one solid hit through the bow t and I've had Spee and played her daily since she was available. The way BBs can  counter this is to turn away and slow the closing rate long enough for their guns to kill you, but most won't run from a cruiser. They'll usually either sit broadside and hold their fire waiting for you to turn out, or turn towards you.

 

Also, I disagree about fighting at long range with Spee. The dispersion is absolutely TERRIBLE by cruiser standards. It spreads both over/under and left to right by a lot. You can easily straddle a BB at long ranges for zero hits even if your aim point is dead on. It is far and away the worst part of the ship. Long range fire is dicey. You really want to be in medium to short ranges otherwise you will be looking at 1 hit per salvo unless you get lucky (or unlucky).  

 

Okay, you have a point. However, it's really dicey to brawl, especially if you get in close, and suddenly there's a destroyer or two there. That's why I advocate against brawling in-general, because the closer you are to enemy ships, the worse the potential is for things to screw up gloriously. And the Graf Spee is German, through and through. She hates it when battlefields are messy and disorderly and when things screw up. She wants to be able to keep things neat and tidy, and getting close tends to make screw-ups more likely. And that's why I suggest against brawling. If you get good at her, and learn how to take her strengths and make then eclipse her weaknesses, then, yes, you can brawl. I'm just writing a review that will help people learn to play her, so that they can get to the stage when they can decide how they play her and make her work.

 

Also, I didn't say long range. I said keep your distance. You can fight at mid-range and still keep your distance, in fact, when fighting at mid-range, it is much more imperative to maintain your distance, because, when you're at long range, you have more time to react and can adequately turn-around and retreat when things SNAFU (which is why most unskilled BB players like to snipe from the back). However, when you're at medium range, you need to be constantly aware and looking around for potential threats and ambushes, which is why being very good in a Graf Spee is so hard. It demands a lot of situational awareness and threat assessment.

 

You play the way you want to play, and, if you're good at it (even if you aren't), don't let me tell you how to play your ship. I'm just giving a general guide to people who don't know how to play her. If you have your own way, then don't let me stop you.


"Heresy!"


Cragger #12 Posted 16 January 2017 - 03:12 AM

    Lieutenant

  • Alpha Tester

  • 1,748
  • Member since:
    08-09-2012

View PostRaze_3, on 15 January 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

I did say ships "like Scharnhorst." Historically, German Battlecruisers have always featured ships armed with cruiser guns, but battleship armor and cruiser speed (sorry, typo in the OP, I'll fix it). Although Scharnhorst is categorized as a Battleship, she behaves more like a German Battlecruiser, and is often considered to be a battlecruiser.

"Scharnhorst was a German capital ship, alternatively described as a battleship and battlecruiser, of Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine."-- Wikipedia

"The British did not refer to the Scharnhorsts as battlecruisers because of their weak main armament. They referred to them as battlecruisers because of their speed. This is the same reason why they referred to their own modern KGV, Lion, and Vanguard classes as battlecruisers."-- Axis History Forum

"Officially Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were 'light battleships' but that is a unique class difficult to compare to other navies." Axis History Forum

 

The reason she is classed as a "light battleship" is that she was supposed to receive 380mm guns (which the Gneisenau can fit in-game), but was sunk before she could ever have them fitted. Also, her armor was definitely better than any comparable battlecruiser of her period, so it's tricky to compare to other cruisers. Also, due to the (in)famous Treaty of Versailles, Germany couldn't build any cruiser of greater than a certain tonnage (of course, Germany didn't give two sh*ts about the treaty, but officials had to be appeased).

 

Anyway, in the same respects, Kongo was actually a battlecruiser, just with much heavier armor and bigger guns.

 

Kongo class where battle cruisers and then rebuilt as fast battleships.  Sharnhorst class where classified by the Kreigsmarine as Schlachtschiff which means 'battleship'. The Royal Navy did class them as battlecruisers during the war but changed it to battleship after and the USN always referred to them as battleships.

Carrier_Lexington #13 Posted 16 January 2017 - 03:28 AM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 680
  • Member since:
    12-25-2014

View PostCragger, on 15 January 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

 

Kongo class where battle cruisers and then rebuilt as fast battleships.  Sharnhorst class where classified by the Kreigsmarine as Schlachtschiff which means 'battleship'. The Royal Navy did class them as battlecruisers during the war but changed it to battleship after and the USN always referred to them as battleships.

 

Why are you trying to argue semantics with me? Are you intentionally trying to derail this thread? Please refrain from continuing this topic of discussion, and only discuss topics relating to the original post.

"Heresy!"


ReddNekk #14 Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:31 AM

    Ensign

  • Members

  • 800
  • Member since:
    10-04-2015

Block Quote

Dispersion still feels a little trollish at max range.

 Dispersion is real iffy at any range. Sometimes the shells fly out in a nice tight pattern and other times they scatter all over creation. I've had six shot salvos miss a DD at 5 Klicks, no hits, because of the dispersal. And other times I've had all six hit a DD at the same range. You cant count on good accuracy, just shoot and hope that RNG likes you. And, Like the OP mentioned, HE is very lackluster.


 

Overall, I find the Graf Spee to be a excellent ship. She's tough and is a serious damage dealer. I just wish that WG had put more effort into the perma camouflage. You have to look real close to tell that you have any!

 


Hold my beer and watch this!
 

 

Nanostrike #15 Posted 16 January 2017 - 10:22 PM

    Chief Petty Officer

  • Members

  • 164
  • Member since:
    10-24-2016
Generally, it gets put up against T7s and T8s that outrange and outspeed it enough to make it useless.

Unless it's springing a close-range ambush, almost nothing seems to be really threatened by the Spee.

DDs at close-range will kill you with torp salvos that you're too slow to dodge, BBs at close range will hang outside your 6km torp range and simply overpower you with HP, armor, and firepower, and Cruisers can avoid close-range altogether and rain on you from long-range.

Tzarevitch #16 Posted 16 January 2017 - 10:54 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 433
  • Member since:
    05-26-2015

View PostRaze_3, on 15 January 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

 

Why are you trying to argue semantics with me? Are you intentionally trying to derail this thread? Please refrain from continuing this topic of discussion, and only discuss topics relating to the original post.

 

​Better question is why are you getting overly sensitive when people respond to your posts? It isn't "semantics", it is called accuracy. He's explaining what they were actually called.

Tzarevitch #17 Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:04 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 433
  • Member since:
    05-26-2015

View PostRaze_3, on 15 January 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

 

Okay, you have a point. However, it's really dicey to brawl, especially if you get in close, and suddenly there's a destroyer or two there. That's why I advocate against brawling in-general, because the closer you are to enemy ships, the worse the potential is for things to screw up gloriously. And the Graf Spee is German, through and through. She hates it when battlefields are messy and disorderly and when things screw up. She wants to be able to keep things neat and tidy, and getting close tends to make screw-ups more likely. And that's why I suggest against brawling. If you get good at her, and learn how to take her strengths and make then eclipse her weaknesses, then, yes, you can brawl. I'm just writing a review that will help people learn to play her, so that they can get to the stage when they can decide how they play her and make her work.

 

Also, I didn't say long range. I said keep your distance. You can fight at mid-range and still keep your distance, in fact, when fighting at mid-range, it is much more imperative to maintain your distance, because, when you're at long range, you have more time to react and can adequately turn-around and retreat when things SNAFU (which is why most unskilled BB players like to snipe from the back). However, when you're at medium range, you need to be constantly aware and looking around for potential threats and ambushes, which is why being very good in a Graf Spee is so hard. It demands a lot of situational awareness and threat assessment.

 

You play the way you want to play, and, if you're good at it (even if you aren't), don't let me tell you how to play your ship. I'm just giving a general guide to people who don't know how to play her. If you have your own way, then don't let me stop you.

Yes, you posted a guide on a public forum and I only commented on that guide demonstrating how it most certainly can brawl and does so very well. I also explained for the readers how you brawl with it.



Tzarevitch #18 Posted 16 January 2017 - 11:27 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 433
  • Member since:
    05-26-2015

View PostNanostrike, on 16 January 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Generally, it gets put up against T7s and T8s that outrange and outspeed it enough to make it useless.

Unless it's springing a close-range ambush, almost nothing seems to be really threatened by the Spee.

DDs at close-range will kill you with torp salvos that you're too slow to dodge, BBs at close range will hang outside your 6km torp range and simply overpower you with HP, armor, and firepower, and Cruisers can avoid close-range altogether and rain on you from long-range.

 

​Torp DDs at close range aren't a problem for Spee. Switch to HE and shotgun them. She has a short hull and turns decently with the rudder upgrade. It dodges torps quite well and can use the hydrophones if it needs more time (I haven't really seen the need). Gun DDs that sit at long range and use HE are Spee's biggest problem a lot more than torp DDs are. They are too agile and her dispersion is poor at those ranges and it is really hard to hit them or drive them off.

 

As for T7 and T8, it does fine against most 7s. Certain T8 BBs can be dodgy and you have to be careful about them (North Carolina and Amagi in particular). BBs will outrange you (and a couple of cruisers) but that is the case with most cruisers on most tiers. The speed difference really isn't that big a deal.  It is slow by cruiser standards, but it this isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It is 7 knots faster than the slowest T6-T8 BBs, and about two knots slower than the fastest. It is only about 4 knots slower than the slower cruisers (US, UK, German). That all assumes your are in a race for something and are running flat out in a straight line.



Carrier_Lexington #19 Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:17 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Members

  • 680
  • Member since:
    12-25-2014

View PostNanostrike, on 16 January 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Generally, it gets put up against T7s and T8s that outrange and outspeed it enough to make it useless.

Unless it's springing a close-range ambush, almost nothing seems to be really threatened by the Spee.

DDs at close-range will kill you with torp salvos that you're too slow to dodge, BBs at close range will hang outside your 6km torp range and simply overpower you with HP, armor, and firepower, and Cruisers can avoid close-range altogether and rain on you from long-range.

Any man can beat another man of equal or lesser strength; true accomplishment comes from beating someone of greater strength.

 

I've played the Graf Spee quite a bit in the previous weeks, enough to neglect most of my other ships. I've seen Tier 6 matches, Tier 7 matches, and Tier 8 matches. From what I can tell, as long as you maintain a moderate distance, aim properly, sail with a fleet, and have a small amount of luck, you will defeat most enemies you encounter.

 

You definitely can kill damaged destroyers, especially if they're making it easy for you by running into map borders, and you most certainly can dodge torpedoes. The Graf Spee, despite being slow, is very agile, even without the Steering Systems Mod. 2 Upgrade. Add that to your Hydroacoustic Search consumable, and you will wreck things.

 

Charging out and solo-ing a full-health enemy warship is not what this ship is made for. Let the German and USN BBs do the tanking, the USN DDs and RN CLs do the charging, and instead stay behind them and either assist in killing the ships they are fighting or fire upon ships that are not currently under fire. When you're contesting a cap or playing close-range, you want to find a place where you are not within line of fire, but you can fire your torpedoes at enemy ships without hitting your allies.

 

The only time you want to charge an enemy ship is when you know that you will be able to use either a health advantage or a distraction advantage (they're engaging someone else) to get in-close, and you know that you will get enough accurate torpedoes on the target to destroy it before it begins engaging you, because you won't be able to run once you get-close.

   Take advantage of BB tunnel-visioning to put fire and torpedoes into Bismarks. Take advantage of your 8km torpedo range to surprise opponents. Take advantage of line-of-sight and line-of-fire obstructions to get fire on targets while they can't return it.

 

But, most importantly, never leave yourself an easy open target.


"Heresy!"


ReddNekk #20 Posted 20 January 2017 - 09:49 PM

    Ensign

  • Members

  • 800
  • Member since:
    10-04-2015
Another con; Damn near every time she gets hit with HE, she catches on fire.

Hold my beer and watch this!
 

 





Also tagged with Graf Spee

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users