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How do the IJN Secondaries stack up vs German?


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Canadian_Reaper #1 Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:31 AM

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Maybe sounds like a stupid question- but I'm just getting into BB play, have discovered that while I'm not (and likely never will be) a great BB player, they can be a heck of a lot of fun to drive around

tanking for your team.

I get that IJN BB's aren't nearly as tanky as the German ones, but what I'm wondering is how the secondaries stack up (assuming max secondary builds) , are they competitive with ships like the Bismarck, FdG, and the GK?

Basically during the Graff Spee Convoy event I (should) be earning the Fuso and the Bayern, I'm leaning towards going down the IJN line (apparently guns are much more accurate) but I do like the idea of having massive secondary batteries for those times where you brawl/have a DD running at you (basically for the times I mess up and get far to close to the enemy..)

 

Don't care if they're not quite as good, as long as they're in the same proverbial ballpark vs their German counterpart I'd be happy.

 



Unabletony #2 Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:34 AM

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They were the best until Germans came in, IMO. So yes, going secondary build in IJN BBs will put you about the same as Germans, albeit tad weaker. 

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TenguBlade #3 Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:39 AM

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Japanese secondaries before T7 are a joke.  Nagato gets good secondaries, but it's hard to brawl with her because of the prevalence of Scharnhorsts and Gneisenaus; really, the presence of the Germans dictates about as much for every tier, but for T7 especially because the Germans get torpedoes.  Amagi's secondary battery is also pretty good, but with the size of her hull and meh armor you're going to have to watch yourself carefully otherwise you'll get whacked.  Izumo is an all-or-nothing design that gets dumped on by cruiser HE of high-tier and shouldn't be anywhere near a brawl despite having decent secondaries.  The problem is that most of them have bad firing arcs which means you need to go near-full-broadside to expose all of them.  Yamato fixes the arc issue but your citadel is easy to exploit at close range so the secondaries are still more situational than the Germans.

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Urandas #4 Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:40 AM

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As I've seen German BB's have completely overtaken IJN BB's in the secondary category. At tiers 9 and 10 they're fairly equivalent, but at lower tiers german BB secondaries have longer range and what feels like better accuracy.

Kojo401 #5 Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:59 AM

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There is little to no reason to have a secondary build before Izumo because the majority of your secondaries fire AP.  Izumo and Yamato get much more HE firing secondaries. 

 

There is only a single situation where I would want AP firing secondaries, a light cruiser showing full broadside at close range, any other time AP secondaries do hardly any damage and do not set fires. This is coming from someone who runs a full secondary build Nagato.


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geser98 #6 Posted 04 January 2017 - 03:02 AM

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View PostTenguBlade, on 04 January 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

Japanese secondaries before T7 are a joke.

 

I thought Kongo has very decent secondaries for her tier.

Aduial #7 Posted 04 January 2017 - 03:44 AM

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I think that they're better against cruisers, because they fire AP shells, which can citadel cruisers if they give enough of their broadside. 

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TenguBlade #8 Posted 04 January 2017 - 05:03 AM

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View Postgeser98, on 03 January 2017 - 10:02 PM, said:

I thought Kongo has very decent secondaries for her tier.

The 152mm casemate guns do hit pretty hard on paper, but I'll be damned if I've ever seen one do anything but bounce if it hits at all.


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Aduial #9 Posted 04 January 2017 - 09:50 AM

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View PostTenguBlade, on 03 January 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

The 152mm casemate guns do hit pretty hard on paper, but I'll be damned if I've ever seen one do anything but bounce if it hits at all.

 

A broadside T5 cruiser will melt under those secondaries. But of course, at that point you might as well use your guns. 

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Espinoza75 #10 Posted 06 January 2017 - 01:40 AM

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Broadside t5 cruiser is sending torps if it's in secondary range.

While a nice perk, it's not the dmg dealer you're looking for.

Junkalunka #11 Posted 07 January 2017 - 02:46 AM

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I only ran secondary builds for Nagato and Yamato... Amagi is better as a stealth ship.

 

Yamato secondaries are good but they are mostly useful for dealing with dds and cruisers... Yamato's power is her 18's and that's going to be your trump card in any close range battle with bbs. Close ranges brawls I fights strictly bow-forward because of a really bad citadel weakness on the bows cheek (limiting the number of secondaries that can be fired).


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YamatoA150 #12 Posted 07 January 2017 - 05:36 AM

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I run secondary builds on Kongou, Nagato, Amagi, Izumo, and Yamato.

 

At T9 and T10, the IJN Secondaries have the exact same ranges as the KM secondaries.  The difference is that IJN secondaries fire faster; much faster than the German ones, but German secondaries have large caliber HE rounds whereas IJN's large caliber rounds are AP.  So when it comes to starting fires, Izumo and Yamato can do it with a bit more consistency than Bismarck, FdG, or Kurfurst, but on the other hand, those 3 German ships have more damaging secondaries per shell due to larger caliber.  So it's mostly even.  All of them have average accuracy w/o Manual Secondaries.  I just notice more hits with Izumo and Yamato w/o Manual Secondaries since they just output more shells in the air.  With Manual Secondaries, I see Yamato tends to land the most just by sheer volume of shells alone, then Kurfurst, then Izumo, then FdG.

 

At T8, Bismarck has the range and HE-centric advantage.  Though I maintain that Amagi's secondaries have more accuracy w/o Manual Secondaries at her max range (around 7km fully spec'd) compared to Bismarck at that same range, and I've gotten far more DD kills with Amagi's secondaries than I ever did with Bismarck w/o Manual Secondaries.  Bismarck needs the Manual Secondaries skill to hit anything with consistency, at least, in my limited testing.  That aside, Amagi's issue is that she fires both AP and HE from her secondaries.  It's great when she opens up on a cruiser that's mostly broadside to her (such as a Myoko or Mogami attempting to bare their aft to torp) as they can deliver pens, but less-effective if they're approaching at an angle or bow on.  However, the RoF of Amagi's secondaries outputs enough HE to still set things ablaze (and in rare occasions, disable/destroy destroyer modules alongside lucky secondary AP strikes).

 

At T7, both Scharn and Gneis share the same secondary range with Nagato, both base and fully spec'd for secondaries, IIRC.  The German twins just have the advantage of torpedoes and better gun traverse that makes fighting them at secondary ranges a lot harder.  Nagato's secondaries also seem more accurate, and have netted me a fair number of DD kills as well.  As with Amagi, Nagato's just seems to fire her secondaries faster than her German rivals.

 

AT T5, it's technically worthless spec'ing Kongou out for secondaries, but when you're the only one diving into hell after that DD or cruiser, you'll come to love just how fast they fire and how vicious they can tear apart low-tier DDs and cruisers.  Granted, the new MM makes it harder to get pure T5 or T4-T5 matches, but when they do, Kongou's secondaries will just tear those newbie destroyers and a fair number of cruisers a new one (and get accused of hacking because I drove a battleship into a DD's smoke, and if I didn't ram them, my secondaries and guns did them in at less than 2km apart).


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4wilds #13 Posted 07 January 2017 - 05:40 AM

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Bismarck secondaries > Amagi secondaries.

 

I loved the Amagi until I got the Bismarck, now my Amagi never sees battle.


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Beatty_10 #14 Posted 12 January 2017 - 07:19 AM

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View PostTenguBlade, on 03 January 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

Japanese secondaries before T7 are a joke.  Nagato gets good secondaries, but it's hard to brawl with her because of the prevalence of Scharnhorsts and Gneisenaus; really, the presence of the Germans dictates about as much for every tier, but for T7 especially because the Germans get torpedoes.  Amagi's secondary battery is also pretty good, but with the size of her hull and meh armor you're going to have to watch yourself carefully otherwise you'll get whacked.  Izumo is an all-or-nothing design that gets dumped on by cruiser HE of high-tier and shouldn't be anywhere near a brawl despite having decent secondaries.  The problem is that most of them have bad firing arcs which means you need to go near-full-broadside to expose all of them.  Yamato fixes the arc issue but your citadel is easy to exploit at close range so the secondaries are still more situational than the Germans.

 

Very helpful analysis, thank you.

 



Kenjister #15 Posted 12 January 2017 - 10:07 AM

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A note on Nagato's secondaries:  

They have great firing angles as most aim forwards and are very accurate when fully specced for.  By volume along they wreck DDs and CAs.

Sventex #16 Posted 12 January 2017 - 10:41 AM

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I run secondary builds on both national Battleships.  Tier 5-6, the secondaries of both nations make a lot of noise, but not a lot of damage.  The Nagato has good secondaries, that causes more direct damage then the Gneisenau, and I've gotten a fair share of close quarter medals killing German Battleships with them.  The German secondaries fire HE which make them more effective against destroyers and starting fires, but they struggle to do damage against Battleship and cruiser hulls.  Meanwhile, the Nagato can absolutely punish American cruisers since they have poor armor and no torpedoes.  The Gneisenau has torps and secondaries that can cause fires, a lethal combo for forcing enemy ships to trigger damage control and burn them down.  The Amagi's secondaries are weaker then the Nagato, but can be useful against aggressive DDs, but they aren't really valuable for the ship's playstyle.  The Bismarck has huge range for the secondaries, but I find that I'm never pulling the same damage I got from my Gneisenau in the Bismarck, I suspect the lack of torpedo tubes makes Bismarck's secondaries less useful in a brawl.  The Bismarck preforms well against DDs, but the secondaries only deal moderate damage against other ships.

 

The Yamato and Izumo have good AP secondaries they fly through the air quickly and can really eat into the enemies HP which can give the German ships a run for their money in the secondary department, but these ships aren't true brawlers and must be used prudently.


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SkyRail #17 Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:07 AM

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The armor layout of IJN BB doesn't encourage close combat that involve the use of secondaries. 

But if you really want a IJN BB that do high secondaries damage.....go for the Yamato, six twin12.7cm per side + two triple 15.5cm can do some nasty damage.


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Aduial #18 Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:09 AM

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View PostSkyRail, on 12 January 2017 - 03:07 AM, said:

The armor layout of IJN BB doesn't encourage close combat that involve the use of secondaries. 

But if you really want a IJN BB that do high secondaries damage.....go for the Yamato, six twin12.7cm per side + two triple 15.5cm can do some nasty damage.

 

You know, IIRC, Yamato had more of those 155s in her original layout, but she got them removed for an AA upgrade. 

 

Edit: Just looked on Wikipedia. 

 

Original:

 

1945:

 

So she got more 127mms in exchange for the 155s. 


Edited by Aduial, 12 January 2017 - 11:12 AM.

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SkyRail #19 Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:16 AM

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View PostAduial, on 12 January 2017 - 03:09 AM, said:

 

You know, IIRC, Yamato had more of those 155s in her original layout, but she got them removed for an AA upgrade. 

 

She had 4 triple 155 + 6 twin 127 when built. after remod, she got 2 of those 155 removed but 6 more twin 127 added + numberous of 25mm guns.

 

in game those 127s are more useful than the 155s imo cos the 127 has much higher rate of fire and they shoot HE. those 155 on yamato in game are not very good.....they bounce more than doing damage.

srsly, I hope those 155 shoot HE.


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Aduial #20 Posted 12 January 2017 - 11:20 AM

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View PostSkyRail, on 12 January 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

 

She had 4 triple 155 + 6 twin 127 when built. after remod, she got 2 of those 155 removed but 6 more twin 127 added + numberous of 25mm guns.

 

in game those 127s are more useful than the 155s imo cos the 127 has much higher rate of fire and they shoot HE. those 155 on yamato in game are not very good.....they bounce more than doing damage.

srsly, I hope those 155 shoot HE.

 

AP is good against any cruisers that give you a broadside though. Even against broadside BBs they can do some decent damage. 

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