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The Stalingrad-class Battlecruiser

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Poll: Stalingrad's Place in the Tech Tree (26 members have cast votes)

Which Tier Should She Be?

  1. Tier VII (5 votes [19.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.23%

  2. Tier VIII (11 votes [42.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.31%

  3. Tier IX (2 votes [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  4. NO NO NO NOT STALINIUM PLEASE (8 votes [30.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.77%

Do You Think Stalingrad is Balanced for the Tier You Chose?

  1. Tier VII needs rework (2 votes [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  2. Tier VIII needs rework (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Tier IX needs rework (1 vote [3.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  4. Make another version at another tier (1 vote [3.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  5. Not more paper ships! (9 votes [34.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.62%

  6. She's fine as is (13 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

Which Areas Need Further Balancing? AA Defense is Already One of Them.

  1. Survivability (HP) (1 vote [3.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  2. Artillery (Main Battery) (7 votes [25.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.93%

  3. Maneuverability (Speed, Rudder Shift, or Turning Circle) (2 votes [7.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.41%

  4. Concealment (Detection Ranges) (1 vote [3.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.70%

  5. Long-Range Shell Consumable (4 votes [14.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

  6. No Balance Needed (12 votes [44.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.44%

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ValkyrWarframe #1 Posted 16 November 2016 - 01:06 PM

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The Stalingrad-class was Project 82, a battlecruiser design intended to destroy enemy cruisers and defend against potential shore bombardments of Russia.  The design was faster than any ship with similar armament, while being more heavily armed than any ship with similar speed.  It is most comparable with the Scharnhorst-class in armament, but closer to heavy cruisers in armor and having destroyer-like speed.

 

Here are the three versions of Stalingrad I created based, stretching the stats based on the tier.  Tier VIII seems like the most accurate version, but since Scharnhorst, a cruiser killer with similar armament to Stalingrad, exists at Tier VII; I was willing to make a Tier VII version with toned down stats.  In addition, after looking at the amazing rate of fire (according to design) and excellent ballistics of the guns as well as the superb top speed, I was willing to make a Tier IX version too, although that is a pretty big stretch, likely adding some more AA guns so it isn’t the #1 target of carriers.  Likely she is going to be Tier VII or VIII, I doubt she could fit Tier IX.

 

A note about the armament caliber, Wikipedia says 61 caliber, but NavWeaps says 62, and I am willing to trust NavWeaps more so I went with 62.

 

Oh, one more thing.  I found weapon data very confusing as the shell weights (except the long-range shell) were all the same, and all propellant charges were the same weight, but velocities vary (700 m/s HE vs. 950 m/s AP).  For balance’s sake (and Stalinium rounds :)), I kept them at the AP’s velocity because WG seems to use that for all Russian velocities.

 

All secondary gun and AA gun stats were taken from other Russian ships.

 

Special Thanks to TenguBlade for helping me with stat balancing, cause I don't know the definition of that (I originally set the Tier VII HP as 66100, oops).

Tier VII Stalingrad:

Spoiler

 

Tier VIII Stalingrad:

Spoiler

 

Tier IX Stalingrad:

Spoiler

 

There is one special thing that I planned about these ships.  Remember the “long-range shell” I mentioned earlier?  Well, of course that won’t be the normal ammo, but I thought about giving them the option of having a consumable that gives that shell for the same duration as the spotter plane  No I am not lying about the 1,300 m/s velocity.  The commas are to indicate how the consumable changes per tier.  Ex. VII, VIII, IX  

Long-Range Shell Consumable

Spoiler

Edited by ValkyrWarframe, 16 November 2016 - 03:27 PM.

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pewpewpew42 #2 Posted 16 November 2016 - 01:17 PM

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There happens to be a great deal of talk about special ammo lately. I wonder if thats a trend.

 

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Battleship_KingGeorgeV #3 Posted 16 November 2016 - 01:22 PM

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Well the Moskva is a Stalingrad battlecruiser variant...but would be interesting to see if this was actually implemented

SirKenshi #4 Posted 16 November 2016 - 01:46 PM

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Nice info.

I think the most balanced in terms of stats is the tier 7, but we already got Scharnhorst that is quite similar, so i'm up for the tier 8 version!

+1:great:

tier 9 looks insane!

And as for the special ammo consumable, too OP imo


Edited by SirKenshi, 16 November 2016 - 01:47 PM.


SubTender_Taigei #5 Posted 16 November 2016 - 02:01 PM

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The balancing has been done quite well, and I would most definitely buy Stalingrad if released at whatever tier (probably 8), but I have one problem with the SHP. I'm assuming it has 4 propellers, and even then, at 280,000 SHP they would be under a lot of stress. Each would have to produce 70,000 SHP, which isn't physically possible, literally. The maximum I've heard of is a theoretical 35.4 knots at 254k SHP for an Iowa class under ideal, deep-water conditions with a very light load. Though, it's better to look at Scharnhorst, a more similar-sized battle cruiser. At 160K SHP, Scharnhorst would be able to reach 30 SHP. If we want to be realistic, you'd have to take into account the loss of efficiency by cavitation and steeper hull resistance required for going above 30 knots, but meh, who cares about that. Even then, ignoring such problems, if you increase Scharnhorst's SHP, it would start causing stressful problems to her propellers and ignoring that too, it would require 240K SHP to increase the max speed by only one knot.

 

Sorry, just my being pedantic. 280K SHP is just way too much for a WW2 battle cruiser to properly handle.



ValkyrWarframe #6 Posted 16 November 2016 - 02:29 PM

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View PostSubTender_Taigei, on 16 November 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

The balancing has been done quite well, and I would most definitely buy Stalingrad if released at whatever tier (probably 8),

 

Hey, give TenguBlade like 50% of the credit, cause he did the balancing all for me.  I just looked up statistics and numbers like armor or gun velocity.

View PostBattleship_KingGeorgeV, on 16 November 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Well the Moskva is a Stalingrad battlecruiser variant...but would be interesting to see if this was actually implemented

That was a lot of my motivation to make this, cause I LOVE my Moskva.

View PostSirKenshi, on 16 November 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Nice info.

I think the most balanced in terms of stats is the tier 7, but we already got Scharnhorst that is quite similar, so i'm up for the tier 8 version!

+1:great:

tier 9 looks insane!

And as for the special ammo consumable, too OP imo

Shoot, I should make a poll that asks for which one.

 

Also, do you mean OP sarcastically or is it actually OP?


Edited by ValkyrWarframe, 16 November 2016 - 02:31 PM.

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TenguBlade #7 Posted 16 November 2016 - 03:08 PM

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You're welcome:)

 

Poll needs a "I don't think it needs buffing" option for the last category, but of course I think so since I crunched the numbers:P


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SirKenshi #8 Posted 16 November 2016 - 04:09 PM

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View PostValkyrWarframe, on 16 November 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Shoot, I should make a poll that asks for which one.

Also, do you mean OP sarcastically or is it actually OP?

950m/s is already very good, even the tier 7 version firing 305mm of stalinium every 24s will be too strong against cruisers. I'm not kidding, fought quite a lot scharhorst lately on cruisers and its very hard to time your turn when he reload that fast and has very flat arcs.

Btw, you didn't mention turret traverse and i assume it doesnt has torps right?



ValkyrWarframe #9 Posted 16 November 2016 - 05:47 PM

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View PostSirKenshi, on 16 November 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

950m/s is already very good, even the tier 7 version firing 305mm of stalinium every 24s will be too strong against cruisers. I'm not kidding, fought quite a lot scharhorst lately on cruisers and its very hard to time your turn when he reload that fast and has very flat arcs.

Btw, you didn't mention turret traverse and i assume it doesnt has torps right?

Turret traverse has no info, since no turrets were assembled.  Yes there are no torpedoes.


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TenguBlade #10 Posted 20 November 2016 - 07:48 PM

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View PostBattleship_KingGeorgeV, on 16 November 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Well the Moskva is a Stalingrad battlecruiser variant...but would be interesting to see if this was actually implemented

Not quite.  Moskva (Project 66) and the Stalingrads were designed to appear similar, but their development efforts were completely separate and near-simultaneous.


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Aetreus #11 Posted 21 November 2016 - 11:48 AM

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I don't think that Stalingrad's AA armament is particularly weak for a Tier VIII, it's comparable in strict DPS/Range to that of North Carolina and significantly better than that of Bismarck. Overall it's also better than any of the Russian high tier cruisers. Also remember that Stalingrad will have a fairly potent secondary battery with around 216k DPS on a side and 6.5km range. Combine that with a very fast ship and you'll probably do unpleasant things to destroyers.

View PostSubTender_Taigei, on 16 November 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

The balancing has been done quite well, and I would most definitely buy Stalingrad if released at whatever tier (probably 8), but I have one problem with the SHP. I'm assuming it has 4 propellers, and even then, at 280,000 SHP they would be under a lot of stress. Each would have to produce 70,000 SHP, which isn't physically possible, literally. The maximum I've heard of is a theoretical 35.4 knots at 254k SHP for an Iowa class under ideal, deep-water conditions with a very light load. Though, it's better to look at Scharnhorst, a more similar-sized battle cruiser. At 160K SHP, Scharnhorst would be able to reach 30 SHP. If we want to be realistic, you'd have to take into account the loss of efficiency by cavitation and steeper hull resistance required for going above 30 knots, but meh, who cares about that. Even then, ignoring such problems, if you increase Scharnhorst's SHP, it would start causing stressful problems to her propellers and ignoring that too, it would require 240K SHP to increase the max speed by only one knot.

 

Sorry, just my being pedantic. 280K SHP is just way too much for a WW2 battle cruiser to properly handle.

I don't think that 70,000 SHP is unreasonable. Tashkent has 65,000 SHP, Chapayev and Sverdlov use 55,000 SHP units, and the Project 23 battleships had 67,000 SHP units(the pattern units for these were bought from a Swiss firm). I believe that outside the USSR, the most powerful units are 55,000 SHP on some of the Italian Condottieri classes, and on Capitani Romani. The USA built the Forrestal class during the 50's, and those have 70,000.


Edited by Aetreus, 21 November 2016 - 11:57 AM.


ValkyrWarframe #12 Posted 22 November 2016 - 02:21 PM

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View PostAetreus, on 21 November 2016 - 06:48 AM, said:

I don't think that Stalingrad's AA armament is particularly weak for a Tier VIII, it's comparable in strict DPS/Range to that of North Carolina and significantly better than that of Bismarck. Overall it's also better than any of the Russian high tier cruisers. Also remember that Stalingrad will have a fairly potent secondary battery with around 216k DPS on a side and 6.5km range. Combine that with a very fast ship and you'll probably do unpleasant things to destroyers.

Yeah, it is very similar to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau in terms of its effectiveness against smaller ships.


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Skullplate #13 Posted 26 November 2016 - 04:59 AM

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Here is some info from Wikipedia:

Rather than use the Tsarist era 305-millimeter (12.0 in) MK/3/12 gun as originally planned, or use the 305-mm/54 guns ordered for the Kronstadt-class, it was decided in 1947 to adopt a new and more powerful 61-caliber gun of the same size that was to use three newly designed triple SM-6 turrets. Each individual gun weighed 101.58 t (99.98 long tons; 111.97 short tons) and the complete turret weighed 1,370 t (1,350 long tons; 1,510 short tons). The guns could be depressed to −4° and elevated to 50° at a rate of 10° per second. Traverse speed was 4.5° per second and each turret was ordinarily remotely controlled from the More-82 main fire control director, but could be locally controlled if necessary. They fired 467-kilogram (1,030 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 950 m/s (3,100 ft/s) to a maximum range of around 53,070 m (58,040 yd) using 209 kg (461 lb) of propellant. Their rate of fire was 3.26 rounds per minute and 80 rounds were stowed aboard for each gun. One barrel was completed in December 1953 for evaluation purposes after the ships were canceled earlier that year.[14]

The 130-mm 58-caliber guns were also a new design. They were to be fitted in a new twin-gun BL-109A dual purpose mount. Each individual gun weighed 4.88 t (4.80 long tons; 5.38 short tons) and the complete turret weighed 65.2 t (64.2 long tons; 71.9 short tons). The guns in this mount could depress to -8° and elevate to 83° at a rate of 20° a second. Traverse speed was 20° per second. The guns fired 33.4-kilogram (74 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 950–1,000 m/s (3,100–3,300 ft/s) to a maximum horizontal range of 32,390 m (35,420 yd) using 12.92 kg (28.5 lb) of propellant. Their rate of fire was 15 rounds per minute and 200 rounds were stowed for each gun.[15]

Twenty-four 45-millimeter (1.8 in) 78-caliber light anti-aircraft guns were to be carried by the Stalingrads in six quadruple SM-20-ZIF power-driven, fully enclosed mounts. Two mounts were fitted on each side of the forward funnel and the last two were superimposed above the rear main gun turret. Each individual gun weighed 402.8 kg (888 lb) and the complete mount weighed 9.75 t (9.60 long tons; 10.75 short tons). The guns in this mount could depress to -13° and elevate to 85° at a rate of 25° a second. Traverse speed was 30° per second.[16] The gun fired 1.41-kilogram (3.1 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 1,080 m/s (3,500 ft/s) to a maximum horizontal range of 12,000 m (13,000 yd). Its rate of fire was 75 rounds per minute and 800 rounds were carried for each gun.[15]

Forty 25-millimeter (0.98 in) 79-caliber AA guns were carried in ten quadruple powered BL-120 mounts. These were designed especially for the Stalingrad-class and were fully, if lightly, armored against splinters. Each individual gun weighed 101 kg (223 lb) and the complete mount weighed 4 t (3.9 long tons; 4.4 short tons). The guns in this mount could depress to -5° and elevate to 90° at a rate of 25° a second. Traverse speed was 70° per second. The gun fired .281-kilogram (0.62 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s) to a maximum effective range of 2,400–2,800 m (2,600–3,100 yd).[17] Its effective rate of fire was 240 rounds per minute and 1200 rounds were carried for each gun.

 

What do would you think of the Kronshtadt class battlecruiser?

 

Here is a image of the Kronshadtat-class:WW2 profile view of the 1939 design for the Kronshtadt class battlecruiserKronshtadt3.jpg

 

Sorry that the image is small, let me see if i can get a bigger image of the Stalingrad-class;WW2 profile view of the 1939 design for the Kronshtadt class battlecruiserKronshtadt3.jpg

 

Damn no luck, I'm sorry about that.:hiding:

 

 

 


Edited by Skullplate, 26 November 2016 - 05:37 AM.


ValkyrWarframe #14 Posted 28 November 2016 - 03:30 AM

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View PostSkullplate, on 25 November 2016 - 11:59 PM, said:

Here is some info from Wikipedia:

Rather than use the Tsarist era 305-millimeter (12.0 in) MK/3/12 gun as originally planned, or use the 305-mm/54 guns ordered for the Kronstadt-class, it was decided in 1947 to adopt a new and more powerful 61-caliber gun of the same size that was to use three newly designed triple SM-6 turrets. Each individual gun weighed 101.58 t (99.98 long tons; 111.97 short tons) and the complete turret weighed 1,370 t (1,350 long tons; 1,510 short tons). The guns could be depressed to −4° and elevated to 50° at a rate of 10° per second. Traverse speed was 4.5° per second and each turret was ordinarily remotely controlled from the More-82 main fire control director, but could be locally controlled if necessary. They fired 467-kilogram (1,030 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 950 m/s (3,100 ft/s) to a maximum range of around 53,070 m (58,040 yd) using 209 kg (461 lb) of propellant. Their rate of fire was 3.26 rounds per minute and 80 rounds were stowed aboard for each gun. One barrel was completed in December 1953 for evaluation purposes after the ships were canceled earlier that year.[14]

The 130-mm 58-caliber guns were also a new design. They were to be fitted in a new twin-gun BL-109A dual purpose mount. Each individual gun weighed 4.88 t (4.80 long tons; 5.38 short tons) and the complete turret weighed 65.2 t (64.2 long tons; 71.9 short tons). The guns in this mount could depress to -8° and elevate to 83° at a rate of 20° a second. Traverse speed was 20° per second. The guns fired 33.4-kilogram (74 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 950–1,000 m/s (3,100–3,300 ft/s) to a maximum horizontal range of 32,390 m (35,420 yd) using 12.92 kg (28.5 lb) of propellant. Their rate of fire was 15 rounds per minute and 200 rounds were stowed for each gun.[15]

Twenty-four 45-millimeter (1.8 in) 78-caliber light anti-aircraft guns were to be carried by the Stalingrads in six quadruple SM-20-ZIF power-driven, fully enclosed mounts. Two mounts were fitted on each side of the forward funnel and the last two were superimposed above the rear main gun turret. Each individual gun weighed 402.8 kg (888 lb) and the complete mount weighed 9.75 t (9.60 long tons; 10.75 short tons). The guns in this mount could depress to -13° and elevate to 85° at a rate of 25° a second. Traverse speed was 30° per second.[16] The gun fired 1.41-kilogram (3.1 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 1,080 m/s (3,500 ft/s) to a maximum horizontal range of 12,000 m (13,000 yd). Its rate of fire was 75 rounds per minute and 800 rounds were carried for each gun.[15]

Forty 25-millimeter (0.98 in) 79-caliber AA guns were carried in ten quadruple powered BL-120 mounts. These were designed especially for the Stalingrad-class and were fully, if lightly, armored against splinters. Each individual gun weighed 101 kg (223 lb) and the complete mount weighed 4 t (3.9 long tons; 4.4 short tons). The guns in this mount could depress to -5° and elevate to 90° at a rate of 25° a second. Traverse speed was 70° per second. The gun fired .281-kilogram (0.62 lb) shells at a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s (3,000 ft/s) to a maximum effective range of 2,400–2,800 m (2,600–3,100 yd).[17] Its effective rate of fire was 240 rounds per minute and 1200 rounds were carried for each gun.

 

What do would you think of the Kronshtadt class battlecruiser?

 

Here is a image of the Kronshadtat-class:WW2 profile view of the 1939 design for the Kronshtadt class battlecruiserKronshtadt3.jpg

 

Sorry that the image is small, let me see if i can get a bigger image of the Stalingrad-class;WW2 profile view of the 1939 design for the Kronshtadt class battlecruiserKronshtadt3.jpg

 

Damn no luck, I'm sorry about that.:hiding:

 

 

 

 

Kronshadt would probably be a Tier 6 or 7.  It literally has Gneisenau's main armament, but without the Made in German™ armor and the torpedoes.  I would say it would be a 6 since the armor is very poor for Tier 7.

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Ie_Shima #15 Posted 28 November 2016 - 04:04 PM

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so yet another paper Russian ship that will most likely being overpowered to a noticeable degree.  I love the fact that wargaming is trying to make a nation that didn't really have a navy (at the time this is set IE: 1900 to 1950) into a major branch.  Russia just doesn't have enough real ships to fill any of the lines beyond their DDs.  wonder if they will even try to make up some CVs for Russia to play with. 

ValkyrWarframe #16 Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:40 PM

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View PostIe_Shima, on 28 November 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

so yet another paper Russian ship that will most likely being overpowered to a noticeable degree.  I love the fact that wargaming is trying to make a nation that didn't really have a navy (at the time this is set IE: 1900 to 1950) into a major branch.  Russia just doesn't have enough real ships to fill any of the lines beyond their DDs.  wonder if they will even try to make up some CVs for Russia to play with. 

 

Hey, just because they were late to the party, that doesn't mean they should be excluded.

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BrianDavion #17 Posted 29 November 2016 - 03:14 AM

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View PostValkyrWarframe, on 28 November 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

 

Hey, just because they were late to the party, that doesn't mean they should be excluded.

 

by that logic we could have a line of Canadian Battleships! I mean no reason Canada should be excluded, and honestly from a naval standpoint Canada's contribution to WW2 was much the same as Russia's (anti-submarine duty) 

TenguBlade #18 Posted 29 November 2016 - 10:09 AM

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View PostBrianDavion, on 28 November 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

by that logic we could have a line of Canadian Battleships! I mean no reason Canada should be excluded, and honestly from a naval standpoint Canada's contribution to WW2 was much the same as Russia's (anti-submarine duty) 

I didn't see any Canadian ships supporting Red Army offensives.  Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it didn't happen, if anything you should know not take the lack of Russian war heroics at face value because we've hated the damn country for the last 70 years.

 

You know, maybe we kind of filtered out stories of Russians doing great things so that they seem inferior to us...but, seeing as this is the United States, we can't possibly have censored any history, can we?:rolleyes:


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ValkyrWarframe #19 Posted 29 November 2016 - 01:34 PM

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View PostBrianDavion, on 28 November 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

 

by that logic we could have a line of Canadian Battleships! I mean no reason Canada should be excluded, and honestly from a naval standpoint Canada's contribution to WW2 was much the same as Russia's (anti-submarine duty) 

 

Literally all Canadian battleships were all built by Britain, so they would either be part of the Royal Navy Battleship Line or individual premium ships.

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Rhagna #20 Posted 17 January 2017 - 06:37 PM

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^ 'nuff said

 

They would be Commonwealth Premium ships. Due to the fact that all ships start with 'HMCS' 

 

"Her Majesty's Canadian Ship"

"Her Majesty's Australian Ship"

"Her Majesty's New Zealand Ship"

etc...

 

Take it from a Canadian.


Edited by Rhagna, 17 January 2017 - 06:40 PM.

Ships:
Premium: Atago, Kutuzov, Graf Spee, Kamikaze, Konig Albert IJN: Hiryu, Hosho, Furutaka, Akatsuki, Izumo RN: Leander USN: Farragut KM: Bayern, V-170 VMF: Budyonny ARP: Kongo, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima, Myoko, Haguro, Nachi, Ashigara
 





Also tagged with battlecruiser, russian battleships, stalingrad

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